Amazon eBooks

1. Amazon eBooks

   #1

   So long story short I am involved in a group that is based around niche publishing and one of the things that they are looking at for their business model is producing a relatively large number of stories of minimal length, 5k-8k words and selling them relatively cheaply through Amazon. It's pulpy, it's low brow, but it sells, and they are getting published.
   
   I was curious to know how well that might port over into the fantasy and sci-fi genre, serial fantasy. Not epic, not blockbuster, but pulp. Swords and sorcery at it's most basic level.
   
   It's no more work than I am putting into the Citadel now, and attainable by most of our members. The things that I have noticed is that there is a common masthead, the collective of writers critique and edit each other's work, and they use the same 'publishing name' to create a commonality among them for readers and buyers.
   
   The thing here is that this other group, they know their market. They know who they are writing for, who they are writing to.
   
   Do we?
   
   Do we want to know?
   
   They have a certain rubric, you write to one of 12 salient themes and topics within the genre because that's what sells. You can step outside of that, but probably not to make any sort of money. There is interest for pulp, but not everyone is a Martin, Jordan or Tolkien.
   
   I'm rambling, I'm tired, I'm drinking.
   
   I want to get published, I want to see this thing I love make me some money. I also know that this can be a group effort, and everyone will benefit from it.
   
   I lost my train of thought.

2. Re: Amazon eBooks

   #2

   What are the big points?
   
   1. Goddamn dragons
   2. Fucking Dungeons
   3. Wizards
   4. Barbarians and shit
   5. Kick Ass Magic Weapons
   6. The Maltese Dingus
   7. The Easily Kidnapped Princess
   8. Motherfucking Elves in this Motherfucking Forest
   9. Overthrowing the Asshat Feudal Nobility
   10. Mythical magical creatures who aren't goddamn dragons
   11. Atonement with your fucking dad
   12. Escapism from the shitty modern world.
   
   
   I'm tired and have been drinking.
   
   But that's the gist of it, isn't it? Why do we read fantasy, why do we love it? Because our jobs suck, because we want to escape from a superficial pacifist politically correct world and go romping through an adventure.
   
   The technology has changed, and the medium has changed. We've got Jordan and Martin churning out 20 volumes of Elven poetry, where are the cheap stories, the ones we can jump into and enjoy and move on? The End, where is the goddamn The End?
   
   Lord of the Rings, one of, if not the most, important genre fantasy stories is two books worth of pages compared to the fantasy encyclopedia being pushed out now...
   
   

3. Re: Amazon eBooks

   #3

   Scras, I get what you are saying here but personally I'm of two minds about it. Firstly, I love writing w/o any restrictions which largely means that I'm not writing for any audience besides myself (and Strolenatis). This largely rules out the possibility of my making a living out of writing. On the other hand, I've revived my dream of writing a fantasy series so that it's no longer a 'dream' but something that I would work to turn into reality (and unfortunately, my taste do run towards epic). For this goal, I need to get into practice. So money aside, what you suggest seems to be a way to help me get into practice if for nothing else. And then, of course, the reality is that I could do with some additional money too atm and it would be a bonus if I could get it through writing. But that's me personally.
   
   The other point you raised is whether the Strolenatis as a group know who they are writing for and to. I would say that as things currently stand, most are writing to and for gamers. As for the Strolenatis themselves, I reckon most are thinking of themselves as either pure gamers or hobby writers. So I'm doubtful as how much leverage we have at the Citadel to form a publishing group. Besides me (who's borderline interested), I know Dossta is but he had wandered offsite. We have a few authors who are into fiction like Sil, Axle and Ourouborous who's actually writing on his own setting but not sure about their attitudes to publishing. So yeah, I don't know whether we will get the momentum to start a Citadel publishing group. Then again, I can't speak for the whole Citadel so you never know.

4. Re: Amazon eBooks

   #4

   Lots of stream of thought stuff. The writing group I'm part of has gone to another level, well beyond any writing group I;ve been part of before.
   
   There are several graphic designers and while we are writing for ourselves (nothing wrong with that) they are discussing cover design. They are discussing actual formatting, and font, and how to package and get the stuff they write sold.
   
   It's just something I've not encountered before.
   
   We've done some of that here, but nowhere near the scale.
   
   And some of them are making money from it.

5. Re: Amazon eBooks

   #5

   
   We've done some of that here, but nowhere near the scale.
   

   
   
   Right, that's why my personal opinion is that the Citadel as a whole doesn't seem quite ready for that kind of stuff but if we can get a substantial number of Strolenatis that are interested in being published on a small scale like you suggested, we might have the needed 'critical mass' to go on such an enterprise.

6. Re: Amazon eBooks

   #6

   I think the biggest difference is that in the other group, we have people who have concrete experience on getting published online, the nuances and details, that we don't necessarily have here.

7. Re: Amazon eBooks

   #7

   Scras, I feel ya. I've longed to see my name on the cover of a piece of work. Maybe one day I'll even finish a work of sufficient quality and length to try that. :P
   
   The site drivethrufiction.com is a sister site to drivethrurpg.com, well known among gamers as a great place to get epub gaming stuff.
   
   Now my experience is so far mainly with drivethrurpg. There, people place smaller things all the time with 99 cent price tags, or even "pay what you want, often with a choice of formats for those who prefer .mobi or .epub over pdf. I've never published through them, so I don't know what it's like from that perspective, but the availability of many low-cost options had made me expand me horizons a bit.
   
   This might make a good way to get your toes wet, at least. A good place to see what the market is like, what catches peoples' collective eye?

8. Re: Amazon eBooks

   #8

   I've dabbled in the graphic design side of it and even released a couple of things for free on drivethrurpg, but my biggest problem I have is that I have trouble generating enough quality content that I'd feel comfortable charging for it. If there were a group that could help me grow in that direction, I'd join it.

9. Re: Amazon eBooks

   #9

   
   I've dabbled in the graphic design side of it and even released a couple of things for free on drivethrurpg, but my biggest problem I have is that I have trouble generating enough quality content that I'd feel comfortable charging for it. If there were a group that could help me grow in that direction, I'd join it.
   

   
   
   Our graphic design dabblers (and a font-phile) regularly put out some pregenerated covers into the group. The titles and names are made up, but the art is there, and the colors and fonts and it looks good. Price tag? I've seen it generally run $30-$50 per cover, and bundled rates, multiple covers for a reduced rate. That's a bit more important since the works being generated are small, that 5-8k word count.

10. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #10

    I should have been more clear. By "content" I meant the content of the book, not the content of the design.

11. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #11

    I would love to empower and enable this in almost any way available. I have been wanting to write a novel since I was in 8th grade. I have shelves full of books on it. A dream, probably one that will never come true, but I LOVE to read about writing anyway. :) Rambling as well...I probably wouldn't be writing anything soon but if we started...I would be on board. Right now work is a minimum of 10 hours a day and leave me spent so I will give what I am able.
    
    But Val has put a huge foot forward writing an ebook and it is a 90% solution if I would get off my ass and do some reviewing of it. I have spent hundreds on art and templating for it, not all used but all getting us closer to what we need and Val, again, has put us right on the edge of greatness. I would be willing to put what resources I have in a hat to enable this and support those that are willing to go forward with it.
    
    Are you suggesting putting together our own publishing group? Joining another?
    
    We can get art. There are plenty of people that will do a good 'nuff piece of cover art for a reasonable price. While I only dabble, I have done all the graphics on the site and the quest covers so, if you think that is acceptable enough, once we get art putting some titles on it is in the realm of my comfort zone.
    
    All said. I am in. Worst case scenario, people flex their story telling skills and develop as writers. Best case...it works. Where do we start?
    
    

12. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #12

    Mind if I post a like to what we have? Some fresh eyes may help, and fresh input might help loose Mathom's hold on me.

13. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #13

    By all means. It would have been fun to have a release but, at this point, it is time to join the Cult of Done in whatever form available!

14. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #14

    
    Mind if I post a like to what we have? Some fresh eyes may help, and fresh input might help loose Mathom's hold on me.
    

    
    If memory serves me correct, I think I volunteered myself to be a proof-reader somewhere along the way for the Strolenati ebook on horror. But this thread is receiving more attention (and pledge) that I expected and maybe the 2 enterprises can be bundled together somehow (I don't mean in a package deal sense but more generallt that the 2 undertakings seem to share things in common and can be developed alongside each other).

15. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #15

    Yissssssssssss
    
    This is the sort of conversation I wanted to get rolling.
    
    I want to do more, but honestly, I don't have the focus or patience for editing like I should. This is something that I would basically pay someone else to do, and I would follow up with revisions, etc.
    
    We need a flag to fly over the stuff that we could push out of the Citadel. Publishing masthead, a central name, something to pull us together.

16. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #16

    I'm actually happy to do the proof-reading free of charge but then the caveat is of course that it would be in my free times plus that you can't expect the proofed copy by me would be 100% glitch free. But that's for a stage further on. So Scras you basically want to have the ball rolling on creating Strolenati E-books on a consistent basis? At first, I thought you want us to join this other venture of your writer's group or start a similar venture for the Citadel (which I had certain doubts on for reasons I already covered). But if that's a misunderstandign and I know what you want correctly now, then it sounds infinitely doable.
    
    We could start off with deciding on the different themes that ebooks could form besides the central name etc. that you already mentioned.

17. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #17

    
    I'm actually happy to do the proof-reading free of charge but then the caveat is of course that it would be in my free times plus that you can't expect the proofed copy by me would be 100% glitch free. But that's for a stage further on. So Scras you basically want to have the ball rolling on creating Strolenati E-books on a consistent basis? At first, I thought you want us to join this other venture of your writer's group or start a similar venture for the Citadel (which I had certain doubts on for reasons I already covered). But if that's a misunderstandign and I know what you want correctly now, then it sounds infinitely doable.
    
    We could start off with deciding on the different themes that ebooks could form besides the central name etc. that you already mentioned.
    

    
    
    I want the Citadel to start putting out eBooks, because we have our own niche, swords and sorcery fantasy.

18. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #18

    I want the Citadel to start putting out eBooks, because we have our own niche, swords and sorcery fantasy.
    

    
    
    That is not something I would be able to contribute to. I am barely familiar with fantasy as a genre.

19. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #19

    At fantomx11,
    
    That could actually be an advantage, being unburdened by the troupes of sword and sorcery your writing could be fresh and original.  The genre already has many writers that come to material as enthusiasts that have progressed to imitators as opposed to coming from personal inspiration.

20. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #20

    Or where you being sarcastic because if so...well played

21. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #21

    
    At fantomx11,
    
    That could actually be an advantage, being unburdened by the troupes of sword and sorcery your writing could be fresh and original.  The genre already has many writers that come to material as enthusiasts that have progressed to imitators as opposed to coming from personal inspiration.
    

    
    
    That's a good point. I'd never thought of it that way and had always thought of it more like I'd be unable to avoid the most common pitfalls.
    
    

    
    Or where you being sarcastic because if so...well played
    

    
    
    Not at all. I am in the minority among gamers in that the only fantasy I'm familiar with is Tolkien, Pratchett, and a handful of Warcraft novels. I'm a little familiar with the tropes through playing a D&D campaign a few years ago, but other than that, I've never paid much attention to fantasy, being way more interested in sci-fi.
    
    It might prompt me to flesh out my magitech space opera setting more by writing stories for it.

22. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #22

    This is linked elsewhere, but here is what I have. I can't speak too highly of the art within, including several original to this book:
    
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fcp3lnejr4d5x0/PathsOfHorrorVol12015-07-07.pdf?dl=0
    
    Comments, critique welcome. 

23. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #23

    At Valadaar,
    
    I think that looks great.

24. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #24

    And by art, I mean the full color renderings by scott holiday. Line art is Public Domain stuff.
    

25. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #25

    
    This is linked elsewhere, but here is what I have. I can't speak too highly of the art within, including several original to this book:
    
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fcp3lnejr4d5x0/PathsOfHorrorVol12015-07-07.pdf?dl=0
    
    Comments, critique welcome.
    

    
    
    So, are we talking about publishing mini-settings/adventure seeds for RPGs? I thought we were talking about collections of short-short stories. Not that that changes my participation, just wanting to clarify.
    
    Also, since I've dabbled in layout, there are a few things that jumped out at me from a quick scroll through:
    
    There is no baseline grid. That isn't a necessary thing, but can be one of the small differences that separates a polished layout from the others.
    I would use justified text because it looks cleaner.
    There are a few orphans, this is usually taken care of through editing the text or use of frames and images (less commonly, and definitely less polished looking is changing font size or spacing).
    It seems like there should be a little more space between the footer and the page text.
    There are a few places where the main text overlaps the sidebars/frames.
    Some of the text in the frames has too short of a line height.
    
    
    I love the original art, it seems to really support the mood of the book One thing (and since this is an epub, it's not that big of a deal) it is too low resolution for print. I would probably take some of the page graphics (like the solid gray piece next to the page number and the one that is under the chapter headings) and redraw them as vector based graphics so that they are resolution independent. Just out of curiosity, some of the art is attributed to Jack Holliday. Where did the rest of it come from?
    
    Edit: Here is a link where I received much of the same critiques on a book I was working on at one time (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?728200-Need-comments-on-my-first-book). The book was a dieselpunk version of my Steam Mice setting that I have posted here.
    
    2nd Edit: One other thing...the fonts you are using, you do have the license to use them commercially, right? If not, I would go to dafont.com, then in whatever category you choose, click on the "more options", select "100% free", and click "submit". This will limit the list of fonts to ones that can be used without purchasing a commercial license. There are several in the Gothic->Various section that have a similar feel to your header font (I'd post a link, but the url includes square brackets that mess with the BBCode).

26. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #26

    Really just hijacking the conversation on e-pubs. This has been in work for a while , and shelved for a while, but this seemed a good time to bring in out for work.
    
    Thanks for this!
    
    The images were from public domain works from the British museum - I'll look at putting in full citation - it was lost in an edit at some point.
    
    I'm going to go through it again with this - and moon's feedback in as well.
    
    Where did you see orphans? I though we killed them all....
    
    
    
    
    

27. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #27

    Where did you see orphans? I though we killed them all....

    
    
    There are many paragraphs scattered throughout where there is only one word on the last line. This is technically an orphan, but not something I would personally be too worried about given the font size compared to the line length.
    
    More noticeable are the following:
    page 15 ends with an orphan.
    page 16 second column begins with a widow
    page 24 has a weird one that I would call a widow even though it's in the middle of the column because there is a paragraph that is divided by a frame.

28. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #28

    Perhaps could give us a kick off short story to set the tone?

29. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #29

    Okay, I had this idea running around in my head and chat with Axle re-affirmed it so I'm throwing things out to be discussed. How about we split Citadel ebook publishing into 2 streams: 1 for gaming materials and 1 for fiction? Can be published under same name and everything as the Paths of Horror but the splitting is just to group like with like. Then I've got this idea that for each e-book, regardless of stream, we could open a quest inviting new subs on the theme of the e-book (Let's face it, each ebook would take at least 1-2 months even if we re-use the same templates from the Paths of Horror so we might as well put this time to good use by inviting more subs of the theme of a particular e-book. Having more material is no prob., we just put out volume 2, 3 etc. but just excuse to invite new subs.) This way, the e-book is not just about money, fame and the rest of it but also strengthening the core of the Citadel which is to be a springboard for more new subs. Others' thoughts on what I said above?

30. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #30

    I like the idea of multiple lines of books, but I would be concerned that we might be getting ahead of ourselves a bit. I think we should focus on one aspect and learn from our mistakes. We should really get the process down, then start looking at branching out.
    
    I would recommend we treat it as a magazine (kind of like Reader's Digest or something similar) but perhaps with a stronger theme for each volume. I do think that pulling content directly from subs will limit the commercial appeal of the book, but that may not be an issue for anyone (it isn't for me). If this is to be a commercial venture with the intention of generating subs, then I think expanding on the subs in the books would be a more commercially viable alternative. I would limit the number of subs per volume and keep the price lower in that case so people that want detail on a particular sub don't feel like they spent too much money on information they aren't interested in.
    
    Another alternative is that the subs are released on the website some period of time after the book is released. Perhaps a new sub type that would keep it private except for people that are involved in the book venture could be created if this option were chosen.

31. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #31

    Spot on, Fan, on the getting ahead bit, I was merely throwing out ideas but yes, I think we need to get the nitty gritty stuff down first like who would be involved in the production team, ways to share cost/profits b/w the production team and authors etc. that was in fact what I thought after posting this idea yesterday.

32. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #32

    Agreed.
    
    I was somewhat mistaken bringing the Paths of Horror into this specific thread. It muddied the waters, but I appreciate the shot of adrenalin the activity has provided.
    
    Anything with the Strolen's banner or logo will need oversight by Strolen.  The e-pubs such as Paths of Horror are meant to showcase the existing content of the site and provide something to draw in readers. Maybe those should be put out under a general title - The Strolenite - Paths of Horror V1,etc.  In this line, submissions are used pretty much as-is with the addition of some editing, art (potentially original) and typography. I expect these to remain free or potentially a membership benefit.
    
    So, this thread remains for the potentially commercial E-Book which would be a separate line of effort in my opinion.  It is much easier to deal with such things as costs, etc, with active authors.
    
    I think the content for a commercial e-pub should be exclusive to the e-pub - either new or derived.  There are lots of ideas for pubs out there.
    
    From a technical side, Strolen and I are using Adobe InDesign.
    
    So yes, we can make use of the template. I will look at what can be done to convert the Paths of Horror sub into a more generic template which fixes some of the comments made by Fantomx11 and Moon.  There is a lot of alignment issues that can fixed at the template level, especially one uncluttered by text.
    
    So in summary:
    
    We have three potential streams:
    
    1.  The Strolenite (placeholder):  Existing site Submission compilations like Paths of Horror V1. Free.
    2.  Stories From The Citadel:      Fiction from the Strolenatii, Commercial
    3.  Strolentii Gaming Supplements:  Commercial game material - new and derived
    
    Thoughts?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

33. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #33

    Another alternative is that the subs are released on the website some period of time after the book is released. Perhaps a new sub type that would keep it private except for people that are involved in the book venture could be created if this option were chosen.

    
    
    That!! ^
    
    And also, I will simply admit that I am useless when it comes to editing or other "hard work."  Just being brutally honest. But I so want to see Strolen specifically (and other strolenites generally) start making some coin with all the wonderful content we have here.
    
    Bless you val for spearheading this. Bless you Moonlake for the editing. Bless you Scras (and others) for all the beautiful writing and bless you fantomx11 for jumping right in and sharing your opinions.
    
    

34. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #34

    Oh, so the Path of Horror is for free and supposed to be for the purpose of new member enticing/existing membership benefits only, I got mixed up and thought that was for commercial purpose as well. The three streams sound like a good idea to me. And if the commercial e-pub is supposed to be all new AND exclusive content, that dovetails nicely with this epub driven quest idea of mine (and if we implement Fan's idea of an exclusive area where epub subs are only viewable for all authors who agreed to join the epub venture followed up by delayed release, that will create new content for the site as well which I see as an important foundation for the Citadel to continue striving for).
    
    I think we now need the thread starter, Scras, back here to work out the cost/profit sharing model of the commercial epubs (among authors, b/w authors and publishing team and b/w authors and Strolen etc.) and the team that will be involved in the nitty gritty side of the publishing versus the participating authors.
    

35. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #35

    
    I will simply admit that I am useless when it comes to editing or other "hard work."

    
    
    Muro, you can join as a participating author for the commercial gaming stream, I think. A lot of your existing work are quality stuff in terms of gamer resource

36. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #36

    An amazon ebook does not need much formatting, we just need content, so we need an editor (in addition to a proof reader).
    

37. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #37

    
    Oh, so the Path of Horror is for free and supposed to be for the purpose of new member enticing/existing membership benefits only, I got mixed up and thought that was for commercial purpose as well. The three streams sound like a good idea to me. And if the commercial e-pub is supposed to be all new AND exclusive content, that dovetails nicely with this epub driven quest idea of mine (and if we implement Fan's idea of an exclusive area where epub subs are only viewable for all authors who agreed to join the epub venture followed up by delayed release, that will create new content for the site as well which I see as an important foundation for the Citadel to continue striving for).
    
    I think we now need the thread starter, Scras, back here to work out the cost/profit sharing model of the commercial epubs (among authors, b/w authors and publishing team and b/w authors and Strolen etc.) and the team that will be involved in the nitty gritty side of the publishing versus the participating authors.
    

    
    
    From what I've seen from my other group, there are three things that roll into the final product. 1. A cover, 2. an Editor, and 3. THe Written product. Most people who do the editing will edit it a piece for $, generally a set amount determined by them. The graphic artists do the same, and I've seen the covers run $20-$50 each. So the writer is basically going to fork out probably $100 on that side, but said material will generate income from Amazon for a good while after that. But it is a niche market, and I don't know what the scifi/fantasy market looks like.

38. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #38

    Right, but if we create a Strolenati fiction ebook publishing circle of say 5 (don't know numbers yet cos we haven't confirmed it), each only needs to fork out $20. I don't think that's an unreasonable amt for a trial.

39. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #39

    From a technical side, Strolen and I are using Adobe InDesign.

    
    
    That is unfortunate because I would love to be involved in that aspect of this, but the software I use does not convert to or from indesign very well.

40. Re: Amazon eBooks

    #40

    What do you use?
    
    

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