Refuge Beneath the Waves — Legacy Forums

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#41

I present the 100 word, Daughters of Kalleum http://strolen.com/viewing/8127 and BND http://strolen.com/viewing/8129

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#42

I liked the BND post a lot, and what is very interesting with these posts is that you are not only describing these subcultures but you defining mainstream culture in the negative.

By that I mean, instead of directly saying what maintstream culture is you are saying what it isn't and thus we get a picture of mainstream culture sort of in silhouette. I too have trouble telling a story directly. Perhaps though we could just define three to six cultural or literary themes that should present and thus explored in this steam punk setting.

Here is example of what I mean by taking themes of Lovecraft's work (other than the Outsider)

Corruption: Attack of humanity by outside forces (humanity is sort of undersiege by all these negative outside influences)

Intellectualism: Lovecraft's heros are never tough young men who overcome with luck, moxie and chutzpah. There is never romance. They are learned men, and if there is ever solution in lovecraft's work it is an intellectual not an emotional one. If they fail it is because of intellectual hubris. This is not to be confused wiith utilitarianism.

Physical Geography: This is not really part of the story per se, but how the stories are told. Most of Lovecraft's stories deal very exquisitely and in a very detailed fashion with physical geography. In steampunk writings I have observed a material fetishism.

Antiquity: Stuff is very old, the conflict comes almost always with something from the past, not from the future or the present.

I know there are others but you get the idea.

Before we go on perhaps we should get a list of this for this setting.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#43

Here is one themes I have picked out so far from what we have written:

Pro-establishment: The plots thus far and our discussions have presented the opposition as being pirates, cults and terrorists. This suggests that perspective we are taking is pro-status quo. We are not writing stories or tossing out ideas about noble rebels or the rise of oppressed minorities. What descriptions we have thus far of the corporate over lords describe them as music loving plant enthusiasts we don't care about money as much as nice stroll in the garden. Or hedonistic dilettantes who pull a Henry the Fifth and then try to change the world to make things up to their dead parents. Sympathetic, not bad guys at all.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#44

axle-I need to think some before I answer your ideas, really glad you liked BND, thanx

I give you performance art http://strolen.com/viewing/8130

Can you tell I visited an art school w/ my daughter yesterday, SOOOOO many nudes! LOL

Housework now

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#45

Some good questions and observations, axle.

I am leaning toward an upper class that lives a comfortable life on the backs of the many, many poor. They can choose to not think about money and enjoy their garden strolls because their lives are easy and paid for by the labor of the masses. And the poor rely upon the upper classes for food, air, living space, etc (it's not like they can hitch up their wagons and go West if they don't like it). Which, of course, swells the numbers of the pirates and outlaws. Perhaps more flavor text written about the struggles of the poor would help round out the picture?

On some level, most are afraid to upset the status quo, because humanity depends upon their underwater structures to survive. Many buy into the propaganda that it would all fall apart without the benevolent hand of the educated upper classes to keep it all in order.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#46

axle-I need to think some before I answer your ideas, really glad you liked BND, thanx

I give you performance art http://strolen.com/viewing/8130

Can you tell I visited an art school w/ my daughter yesterday, SOOOOO many nudes! LOL

Housework now

I could see this being controversial. The upper classes have their version that is all about "artistic expression" while the lower classes are little more than peep shows. And then you have the vocal group who feels it is entirely inappropriate and should be banned.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#47

I present the 100 word, Daughters of Kalleum http://strolen.com/viewing/8127 and BND http://strolen.com/viewing/8129

Nice!

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#48

First draft of zulu thingy
http://strolen.com/viewing/8126

This is a good start and makes me start pondering slavery in the setting. Certainly it would have been an easy thing to justify in the original move underwater. Lots of mining and building needed to happen quickly.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#49

Ok , I think I know exactly what I would like my niche in this project to be. I'd like to concentrate my efforts on, cults, sub cultures and criminals/masterminds of the setting. Basically creating adversaries and to some degree flavor. That is what I am most comfortable in adding. I will be doing these as private drafts and putting both of you on as collaborators.Ill put the links in this thread, so you can feel free to add and alter. I am also a willing sounding board and happy to go over every thing that is done, providing input. Mystic I urge you to keep axles androids, they are a great hook, also hope you are willing to make room for my zulu thing, next on my agenda is some work w/ some New Guinea, sub culture, prob doing some version of the Cargo Cult, will post links when this and zulu idea are ready for inspection.

a couple of stray thoughts
a new version of Goth
beatniks
hippies
gypsy's
Charles Manson's cult
David Karesh
Jonestown
Heavens Gate

OOO OOOOh
The Daughters of Kalleum
cross dressing, black wigs and make up
ritual sacrifice by Kalleum ingestion
sort of Goth/thuggee

Occult/nazi/Vril cult with non Aryan focus, female? Cabala?

These are much-needed aspects of the setting. I very much appreciate you *diving in* :)

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#50

Paper.

It is suggested in the original sub the paper is no longer used or at least very rare. Several thoughts about this, you could go with a paper based on pulp made from kelp or sea grass or even algae. You could have paper and plant fiber clothing explained away with single line. Because might assume that the people have access to these in abundance, and I have read articles about Seaweed fiber clothing (and often abut foe seaweed fiber clothing).

Additionally perhaps people get there newspaper etched on small pieces of glass that they load into some type of microfische projector or worn view master. The print could be done with an acid etching techinque in which the acid is applied to a ceramic moveable type. The glass items would be fragile, but just a very different type of fragile when compared to paper.

Good idea and a good argument for changing the setting.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#51

what happened to the sea mammals?

Oh... good question. More than likely they would have been severely impacted by the weaponized kalleum. As much as I've been wanting to avoid mutants in the setting, I am tempted to have mutant sea critters. But then, maybe I've been looking at too many Mutant Epoch books lately :P

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#52

Just read your 2 part okekai, axle. Excellent job of bringing the setting, and Marine Ducks specifically, to life.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#53

Just read http://strolen.com/viewing/8131

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#54

Regarding paper, I wasn't arguing for our against it, I was suggesting an explanation for the wide spread existence of paper and alternative to paper: using glass slides to hold written media.

What did you think was good idea?

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#55

I thought your alternative sources of paper was an excellent idea, as well as questioning my original dismissal of paper in general. I plan to work your idea into the original sub at some point.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#56

I don't think that the mainstream should be all that well defined. You've got a situation where cities are very isolated from each other and a grand culture would not develop. I feel all of the ideas we have for the mainstream are correct, a little bit of all of it would be true somewhere. My recent bunch of subs were a rush of creativity that I felt would add nitly little tidbits of culture. I think the Victorian Morals of when they first went under should be our guide. I don't know about slavery thou. It seems to me those bits of human frailty would be left behind and in such a relatively low population, it would be easy for skilled individuals to enter a small but thriving middle class and poss even further. All that being said, I don't much care what direction we take this in, I am very happy with my role of as axle put it, defining by negative.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#57

I like the idea of different cities having very different cultures, it would allow you run with very different ascetics and character archetypes in each city.
Ideas not suggestions:

You could have a Stalinist style communist city, grey, drab, lots of double speak, secret police and fatalism.

You could Peter the Great Style city, east meets west opulence, the perfect storm of cultural insecurity and cultural narcissism, an absolute leader, an entrenched old school artistoracy, an up and coming military fashion and of course fatalism.

You could have a Yankee city, capitalist, militant, vulgar, strong sense of individuality and personal determination, with a cultural insecurity, and a latent loyalties to the other cultures of the deep.

Anyway Aramax, I am not a historian but I am a fan of history, you have made me realize that other than through novels and other fictional media my only sourced materials for the English Victorian era have come from a bio on Queen Victoria (not directly culturally helpful), a bio on Charles Darwin and the Dickens stuff they made us read in High School. I haven't read much English-English literature from that era. I got the ideas of rationalism and utilitarianism from Darwin's bio. So can give me a quick primer on the Victorian Era. I am more aware of Regency era England, as I am sure are most americans, and the rich cultured aristocat standing on the backs of the poor sounds pretty Regency era to me.

You have done this three times already

Samurai-made me realize other the through fictional (which I am sure are dipped in fact) movies I know nothing about the Samurai

Zulu-Almost nothing, I priced ethnographers works on the Zulu but they were expensive.

Now the Victorian Era....but I am interested in exploring as a setting and roleplaying tool the academic climate that Darwin was floating in during that time and the Academic climate post darwin.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#58

Glad I inspired you, as you have done the same for me! In collage my primary areas of instruction were history, philosophy and theater(I have a minor in African- American studies,which is solely based on taking karate classes! LOL but true!)

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#59

so can you give us that short primer on Victorian era culture, don't care if it is factual, just want to know how you understand it.

but I have been listening to Podcast documentary on Victoria this morning, it is crystallizing for me that the Victorian period was a transition period as the excesses of the Regency period gave way to a more egalitarian period.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#60

Not really, my areas of history were earlier English,Irish, Chinese and Russian. Plus that was almost 30 years ago. You'd be better off with Wikipedia

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#61

I don't care how the posters on Wikipedia understand the Victorian age, I am interested in your understanding of it.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#62

It was an age of science and great billionaires, the expansion of the British empire to its maximum,"The White man's Burden, an age when an english reporter would charge into battle pistol drawn and fired. An age of the growth of electricity, an arms race that ultimately yielded WW1. An age of hidden sex, fetish and satanism of the upper class, widespread prostitution, When Victoria was asked by a new bride about sex she said"Close your eyes and think of England"

In America the only thing that mattered was how many dollars in your pocket

The great UNWASHED masses, the rise of nationalism, The rise of communism and socialism and the anarchy movement.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#63

a couple of thoughts

not sure I see slavery, it seems to me that due to the limited population , skilled individuals could easily move to a small but thriving middle class, perhaps with a glass ceiling that would prevent all but a very few from entering the upper class. again due to isolation of cities many regonal variations could exist.

a meritocracy where testing yields your place in society, similar to old China

we do want to not bite off more than we can chew , so I think a regional approach to what we are going to work on would be appropriate, my suggestion being the Atlantic Ocean

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#64

Good discussion on the various cultures and cities. I'm thinking 1-5 major cities for each main culture (good starting list/flavors, axle), plus a number of minor cities, and a plethora of smaller settlements. The small settlements closer to the larger ones probably reflect the attitudes of the overall culture (although more "rural" in nature) while the ones further out will have subcultures and strangeness all their own.

So, what we need is at least a list of the cultures and the major cities of each.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#65

I def feel ther should be an England and an America based on tech,wealth and geographic position. thees are to me must have with logic of setting so far, thus my comment on doing the Atlantic first

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#66

That makes senses to me. I'd like to do at least a list of the major settlements, but focus in on one specific region to start with. That will be the region the PbP is set in, so think of what you would like to actually play in.

So... Yankee, British, or...?

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#67

Also Ive been thinking about war, normally a fight over ideology, religion or resources . I think the resource fought over would be MANPOWER, slave raids and secret agents, enemy union organizers. A communist state would fit well.

also do to the inability to defend underwater domes a detente among the powers that be would lead to a situation very similar to the Cold War, with elite special forces being the primary military are of the great powers

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#68

Based on geography and the internal logic of the way the Catastrophic war would be fought my suggestions are Argentina, Brazil, China ,japan, India, South Africa, England and America, assuming an escalation of tech surrounding that war. Do too politics and geography I doubt any of the European powers would survive, only suggestions. Only must have on this list IMHO are America ,England and Japan

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#69

How about One good America and one evil one, one on the Atlantic and one on the Pacific, they would lip service with a "united" government.

The Panama canal could be a really good source of tension between the major powers,although from a later period it would be a logical construct of the American response

Also ,again due to geography maybe only 2 major regions Atlantic and Pacific

sizable German comunity tied to one of the bigger "third world"(currantly)powers

At the beginning of the 18th century, America and England were often at odds , A French presence in this new America could be argued for.

Tying Kalleum to another real life element would be a good place to suggest where the resources were fought over.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#70

i THINK WE MIGHT WANT TO CONSIDER HAVING A WORLD WAR START 1800-1840S , and having that be the jumping off point of our history some potentialities
The French revolution
Napolianic Wars
War of 1812
a later conflict between America and England
Colonial war starting in Africa or Iniidia
The Opium war in China
The Crimean War
????????????????
I really like the idea that either Napoleon or Pres. Andrew Jackson started it all
am I correct in seeing that it was a very long war? 25-75 years?

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#71

British Style Community

Location: Off the Coasts of Spain and Morocco (It is warm and Shallow)

Original Settlers: Elements of British Naval Hegemony Head Quartered in Gibraltar

Founding Father: The Admiral T. Cochrane, Earl of Dundonald, 1st Marquess of Maranhao. Commander of Atlantic Submersible Fleet

Founding Philosophy: Cochrane and his supporters sought to save the cream of civilization; artists, skilled technicians, scientists, buissnesses men and academics. Cochrane was not religious or poltical, which ironically separated him from most of the military commanders. Cochrane’s vision was to save the best humanity had to offer. His society is heavily captilistic and consumer culture. Societal values shifted towards utilitarianisms in both academics and business, which are the two strongest drivers of the community. There is still however a peerage system that was carried through either via social momentum or a hold overs from the naval culture that emphasized a difference between the ranks Officers and Gentlemen with the common seaman.

Founding Populations: While Cochrane and his group centralized their power in the Atlantic they did have command of the largest global submarine fleet, and the retained control of global telegraph systems until finally failed. Thus while most of the founders where members of the British navy or British desirables, Cochrane was able to gather what he considered to be worth while people from all over the world. Cochrane community offered safety to academic and skilled workers from all over the world.

Themes:

The overweening conceit: Hubris

Nationalism

Stoic British Reserve,

Rigid Class System: A Hybrid Upper Class of Business, Academics and Military. (The leaders of Government always hold a military, academic position and are invested in private interests, often all three. Indeed they expects to sever in some other capacity besides government for governments sake.)

An Arts Scene,

Capitalism,

Consumerism,

Dry Humor,

Intellectualism

Rationalism

Economics & Government (these idea may not always be compatible): Capitalism, Consumerism, Republic Style Government (Members of the Peerage Elected by the Masses), Social Engineering, Populist Government Institutions

Mantra: The Goal of Government Should be to Allow Great Men to Do Great Things for Their Nation.

Hard Notes from History: Many of the founders were Eugenics Philosphers or held Eugenic inspired believes and social engineering programs have been ruthless and unfair. They broke from the main British Government at the end of the war and were essentially traitors. They did not take many, if any, survivors from Spain, Portugal or Morocco even though they could have. They preferred to search the globe for more "desirable "people to import.

Cultural Ideal: The cultural ideal is a well educated wealthy renaissance man or woman, who is completely comfortable in military or academic settings. This is also wrapped up with a culture of vanity and ambition, in which those in power would be loath to show weakness or share power. The cultural idea is strongly wrapped up with a Nationalist Ideal. The people of Rawlwick are the best of the best and thus deserve what is best.

Counter/ Sub-Cultures:
The Humanist or the Populists. This group believes "that we are truly are brother's keeper" and wealth and privilege should not come at the cost of human suffering. They are largest minority among the Elite. The cultural majority believes these to be impractical bleeding heart liberals would weaken the country by supporting the weakest parts of the country as opposed to the Nation's strengths.
Transcendalist: These would be the largest group if they were not subdivided into the Machinama and the Eugenic advocates. Both believe that man must evolve and that evolotion can sped up and directed by social engineering. The cultural majority tends to agree with the sentiments of these groups, but they view their social engineering programs as Ivory Tower fantasies.

City: Rawlwick

Settlements:
Jasper (shallowest closet to the continent)

Marrine Ducks (Deepest, Isolated)

Corporations:
Symth-Templin Group (Agrodome operation and Pneumatic Machine Design and Construction)
Gantrallic & Co (mine Operation)
K&C Mining Co (mine operation)
Hallum Agrodome Operating Co

Inspirations: Thomas Cochrane was the real life inspiration of Aubrey in the Master and Commander Series. Cultural Ideas Taken from novels and histories set between the 1770s to the 1820s. The time of the Sharpe Novel series, the Master and Commander Series, and the Jane Austin Novels…all that plus a submarine fleet.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#72

Very nice axle!

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#73

New Philadelphia
Located at the mouth of the Delaware River, it was founded on the best intentions of the American government and Venture capitalists. It was one of the very first underwater cities and as such they made some curious and unusual choices in what they brought with them. The most unusual was cattle. Cattle were a very,very poor choice to pin underwater hopes on. While the herd is very small these days, it is still a source of income with the sale of incredibly expensive beef . Even at the exorbitant rates charged for it. The herd barely pays for itself. But it is a source of pride for the residents of New Philly ,so the cows stay.
As with the cows, the government is unusual too.

The government is a weird mix of incredible union control, socialism and capitalism, it is nearly incomprehensible to an outsider. A complex system of union bosses, Elite upper class,elected officials, The military and a Women's Senate.runs the city. There is one chamber of representatives from each of those groups. It is sort of an Athenian democracy that gets very little done. These houses of representatives can mostly only accomplish the election of a president of each one of them. These five choose a Senior President among them, and rule together as the executive branch.It seams to work for them, but the citizens spend an inordinate amount of time on politics, elections and ballot initiatives,with many individuals able to vote in 2 or 4 of the elections . They seem to like it!

The houes are divided on a very rock paper scissors system. Each house has dominion over one other. A bill can origin in any one of the Senates. but each Senate has veto power over one other union boses have veto over Upper class, Upper class has veto over elected officials. Electiced officials have veto over
The womens senate. The womens senate has veto over the military. The Woman's senate is an anachronism as men can be elected to the chamber but cannot vote on it.Everybody and his brother is in an elected position.

Adventure Hooks

Cattle rustlin'!(of course)

The Union bosses are constantly trying to'export' unions, this can be a source of adventure from either side of it.It can cause trouble on an "international scale'

The adventurers are tasked with the herculean chore of navigating the mix of politics to get a trade agreement. Good Luck!

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#74

LIBERTAD (spanish for freedom)

Prussia , realizing that it was going to lose the war badly, formed an alliance with Argentina. Tech from Germany would build the city and the Argentine upper class would have an exit strategy. One of the last underwater cities, it was hasty and slipshod. The size of the city is huge but with below average quality on the less important domes, many became tombs. A feeling of dread filled the workers with many refusing to leave the safety of there better built, strategic domes. As more and more of the workers domes failed, the dread turned to revolt among them, leading to civil war.More domes were destroyed in the fighting bur neither side made any attempts to disrupt power, food or oxygen supply. The workers emerged victorious

Throughout the conflict the Prussian minority mostly emerged unscathed, since both sides viewed them as essential to survival.

Today Libertad is divided into two societies, The masses of the city with its one party democracy, and the German speaking intellectuals and technocrats.
Tension run high between the two groups, with frequent assaults and murders committed by both sides. The Prussians are constantly being courted by other cities, so the dictators of the city give them special privileges. This extends to the extreme of the Prussian's having their own small but elite military force, carrying on the best traditions of military service.The German -speakers are also ,selectively, taking the best of the masses to serve in this force.They are responsible for protecting key facilities in the city.

The ruling Spanish party(Heiro,Iron) varies greatly in its grip on power. from true democracy,oligarchy or one men dictator. Currently it is a cult of personality surrounding the dictator, who calls himself Acero (steel).He keeps a tight rein on power, chaffing at the Prussians. Always the threat of another charismatic leader is a possability

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#75

STAD (Afrikaans for city)

Located on the Atlantic coast of South Africa, this city was built by an English upper class, a Afrikaner(white Dutch settlers from the 1600s) middle, and a Zulu lower class,reflecting the mores of the times. At first a rigid caste system was present. but as time went on the realities of life under the sea has led to an easing of the class system and the elevating of skilled and talented individuals became a necessity of life. It was felt that the Zulus experience in the gold and diamond mines would be of great value , as well as the idea of avoiding tribal violence by introducing only one tribal group.. So of all the rich culture of Africa ,only the Zulu remain.

The English upper class has for the last 50 years, been slowly introducing the idea of mixing races, with great success..Introducing forced desegregation of schools,work place and promotions.And cash incentives and education vouchers for mixed race children. The Zulus have been only too happy to integrate into the society as a whole. A sizable minority of the Afrikaners are resisting , quite violently. They seek both to maintain cultural and racial purity. Many surrounding settlements consisting of Afrikaner separatists exist. Constant minor warfare is present, Forcing the Stad government to heavily militarize. This has lead to one of the largest navy's of the current era.

About 5 years ago, the navy stepped in and took control of the parliamentary government. In an attempt to settle the conflict down, The coup put in place an Afrikaner commodore as head of state. Unfortunately he was a poor choice as his sympathies were with the rebels.. He rules with a military council, secretly advancing his agenda. Things are not looking good.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#76

Aramax
You want to go dystopian with the setting? What was the argument about slavery and humanity would reject its base instincts?

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#77

Got some good feedback and ideas at the con over the weekend. Will organize and post my notes and thoughts soon.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#78

Aramax
You want to go dystopian with the setting? What was the argument about slavery and humanity would reject its base instincts?

No, I am putting in sources of conflict to hang gaming on. In Stad it is the 'middle" class that is the problem, In New Pilly, the society is weird but functional., In the Argentine it is the struggle between the Upper classes. As far as I see the only dystopic thing I have written is Sunshine! and that could be just applied to the appropriate cities. Internal and external struggle is a NECESSITY of a gaming source book. As to slavery ,I didn't mean to imply that it was human kindness that would cause it to be a thing of the past, it is the reality of living underwater,slaves would cause a lot of damage to infrastructure easily.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#79

So I guess that is how I should think about things? I don't mind a dystopian take on things, but you did not write a nuanced or qualified description of the idea. I could certainly see a Logan's Run type scenario in this setting. Can you see my point of view, in as much if I were to take your post as written, than it is a heavy handed departure from the tone we had been playing with.

Please expand on this relationship between slavery and infra structure. Also might there be a double speak style rebranding of slavery?

When you are calmer you are smarter.

Re: Refuge Beneath the Waves

#80

I just don't see slavery in this setting, when a city is one Oxygen supply generator away from disaster, also you would need to keep population under control due to resources available. A true slave class would need too much oversight(not that the setting couldn't have one or two,especially like you describe) Also I think you would prob have thriving middle classes, plant managers, doctors etc.(not maybe all that large) I think maybe you were a little focused on your point of view(arn't we all). WE don't have Aliens, orcs or mutants to work with. We have humans. No conflict is a mighty dull source book., When I have been writing sub culture stuff, NONE of it should be universal.
I think at this point we (or at least"I') need more input from MM on this. Especially concerning cities.

and yes, yes I am :lol: