Magic and spells

#1

The Magic attribute has three levels like the other attributes and follows the same lines.

Level 1 Magic
Level 2 Arcane Spiritual
Level 3 Force Prowess Resolution

To find out what complexity and power of spells the character can cast, the player spends skill points on the Spellcasting skill, where is the highest level of spell they can cast. Spellcasting is an Arcane or Prowess skill.

To find out how many spells the character can know, the character adds their Magic attribute to their Spiritual or Resolution trait.

To find out how many spells the character can have ready, the character adds thier Magic attribute to thier Arcane or Force trait.

To learn a new spell, the character uses their spellcasting skill to perform a check against the level of the spell. Level 3 spells need 3 successes to learn, Level 2 needs 2 successes, Level 1 only needs 1, and Level 0 needs 1 success because 0 successes always means you failed. If the player spends a Karma Point they can use thier Magic attribute instead of thier Spellcasting skill for the check, but they still can't learn a spell whose level is greater than thier spellcasting skill.

There are two basic types of spells: Rituals and Spells. Rituals take quite long, the fastest being a mere 2 to 4 hours long, and do no damage. They can have ill effects, however, and all rituals typically last quite long, with durations of days and weeks, and many are simply permanent.

Spells are quick, with some of the lower level spells being instantaneous, and can do damage. Level 0 spells or rituals never do damage, as they are basically cantrips. Spells effects are never permanent, although the results are, broken things stay broken, dead things stay dead (usually), but you can't have a fire ball eternally exploding.

The reason level 0 spells are basically cantrips is because it takes a determined wizard with a firm grasp of the concept to only be able to cast level 0 spells. The would have to have either a Magic attribute of 2 or 3 and put all their triat points in anything but Arcane or Prowess. This character does make for an interesting concept, though.

Imagine a Hedge Wizard, a village wizard that only has small magics but has made himself useful to the people. He would need to know many spells, some quite specalized, but would rarely need more than a few at a time. He takes a Magic attribute of 3 and gives Force 0, Prowess 0, and Resolution 3. He can have 3 spells ready to cast before having to rest again, he can get spellcasting a level 0, and can know 6 different spells to start.

There are three realms magic draws its power from: The Corpreal Realm, The Spiritual Realm, and The Astral Realm. Magic is the cycle of life. We live in the Corpreal Realm, where all elements mix with spirits to make creatures and the whole of the world. In the Spiritual Realm, the elements are like vapor clinging to the spirit, and everything that has a soul can exist and interact on a pure level. In the Astral Realm, the souls have split and attached to the seperate elements, giving them a means to express themselves. Soul and spirit combine once again to form the Corpreal Realm and the cycle begins anew.

Each of the types of power has three general types of spells associated with it: Power spells, Manipulation spells, and Endurance spells. Power spells tap into the raw energy and force of a Realm to create their effects. Manipulation Spells draw on the energy of the Realm and use it to change things and the way they interact. Endurance spells use the lasting properties of the Realms to create defensive effects and lasting enchantments.

Corpreal spells deal with moving and transforming things around the character. Astral spells are about energies and forces and psychic stuff. Spirtual spells are for healing and favors, nature and gods and stuff.

I'll start posting some examples of spells in a bit. This is just a start for now.

Magic and spells

#2

Ok, time for some spell examples. This will be loose as I am developing this aspect still and I have a dilemma about how many spells to "go" with. AD&D has hundreds of spells, but really, most wizards only use the same dozen or two. NetHack has only 20 or so spells and they're quite useful, but there's always that feeling like you want some more. So should I go for lots, or just a select "cream of the crop" kind of deal? Your comments are important to us. :lol:

So, as a general overview, there are four levels of spells.

Level zero spells are basically cantrips. Maybe glorified cantrips, but cantrips. The biggest restriction on level zero spells is: They can do NO damage. Ever. At all. No way, no how. They can be useful, growing plants, cleaning stuff, fixing stuff, passive acts of agression, but no damage.

Some examples of level zero spells would be Healing and Cure, Sleep, Pull, a spell to bring small objects closer; and other such neat and useful things. This is to help the Hedge Wizard type of character by providing a wide selection of spells with many applications so the real limits of the spell is in the application of the character. The more creative, the more possibilities.

Level one spells are the meat of the magic system. Attack spells, the more effective manipulations, the toys that go boom and bang, the fun stuff. They can do damage, no qualms here and they still have useful applications and such.

Some examples of level one spells would be Magic Missle, Fire Fingers, Charm, Levitate, Telekinesis (for throwing big stuff), and Hop (a ten foot range teleport)

Level two spells are the more refined spells as mainly dedicated wizards will have access to any reasonable number of them. They are more powerful and take more planning to do interesting things with them.

Some examples of level two spells are Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Fly, Invisibility, Extradimensional Space, Teleport (for more than ten feet), and the other real cool toys that make players who play wizards want to be wizards.

Level three spells are the big ones, the things wizards quest to be able to do, the spells that can turn the tides of wars and challenge the will of fate. These spells cut loose and really take a bite out of things.

Some examples of level three spells are Chain Lightning, Raise Earth, Delayed Blast Fireball, Fog of Death, Ressurection, the really big ones can be found here.

Aside from the levels, the spells have their category too. Magic Missle would be a Astral Power spell. Raise Earth would be a Corpreal Manipulation spell. Sleep would be a Spiritual Manipulation spell. Ressurection would be a Spiritual Endurance spell.

Magic and spells

#3

Ok so that's the general idea. *looks up* Yhea ... General Idea. So the details like range and area of effect can be worked up in a later, more defined list, but for right now, spells should have the name of the spell, the level of the spell, the category of the spell, and a description. Like so:

Name: Nerf Arrow
Level: Zero
Category: Astral Power
Description: A large yellow dart of firm foam flys towards the target.

And, upon retrospection, I only even thought up the Category part to help classify and inspire spells, so if you don't want to or don't understand that part, feel free to skip it. Category is Optional. At least untill someone can justify it or comes along with a better idea.

Now would be the time I would need help. Any spell you can come up with will help me, and I would like that a lot! :D I'll start one for now, and post more when I've had more than 4 hours of sleep.

Name: Helm of Rank
Level: One
Category: uhhh ... how about Spiritual Endurance?
Description: The target of this spell recieves a helm of some type that reflects their highest potential, and grants them might and intelligence to help them reach that potential, at the cost of some mental stability. For example, a penguin :lol: might be destined to conquer and rule most of the known world, and recieve a pirate hat and a drinking problem.

Might I suggest a hybrid approach

#4

A hybrid approach might work...

Set out the guidelines for what sort of spells are possible....
Then list the 10-20 common useful spells that everyone is going to use (and be creating for themselves anyways). This way you have a fluid spell system, useful spells, and built in examples.

Note: Also include some of the common spells that non adventuring spell casters might have. (which will add a few.) This will give you set spells for the townie NPC spell caster, npc village witch, and so on.

Magic and spells

#5

Ok, I give up. I really need some help here. I've been trying to come up with some guidelines, and I just keep going in circles. I dunno.

What are your ideas on spell systems? What do you like to use for spells and what do you not like? Do you want specific stuff, or vagueries? Waht are your favorite spells and why? Some of the more memorable time when the right spell made everything happen in a great way. Some of the times when the spells just clogged everything up.

Give me some feed back here, I need the help. I am totally bogged down in this. :?

Magic and spells

#6

I hate coming up with new spells. When it comes down to it, like Moon says, there are certain spells that appear everywhere. Coming up with your own is really not worth the trouble I don't think.

Maybe come up with a system to classify spells instead, then they can use any spell from any book and conform it to your rules.

(This is all off the top of my head and probably useless, but we are brainstorming right?)

Either use magic points (which may complicate even more) or a classification system to your levels.

For instance, take duration and area of effect and use that to help determine level. Make a quick chart for length and area that has points to determine the level in your game. For increasing distance and area increases the points in a small chart. Depending on the total determines what level it is in your game.

Then use your spell level descriptions to add more points and you can almost determine what any kind of spell with any kind of duration with any kind of area of effect will fit in your system.

Magic and spells

#7

Ok, I know it's been quite some time since I did anything on any of this. Starting a new business, holidays, and an incredible mental block have ground this, as many other systems I've started on, to a halt.

Now the holidays are past, the business is doing all right ... , and much, much meditation has produced some fruit. As I lay awake at night, as I often do, I spent much time agonizing over what I should do. Then I got thinking on written language. Chinese, Babylonian, Norse, Egyptian, all have a form of written record, all different. The scholors decided they needed a way to pass information on after they were gone, and made one. Nessecity is the mother of invention. Magic could work much the same way.

No matter how magic works, the magician will craft it into a way to do what he needs, if that is possible. And with magic, most things are possible.

So what does the wizard, especially an adventuring one, need?

Really, they need the same stuff any adventurer needs:
A way to go from one place to another.
A way to find the place you're trying to find.
A way to survive the weather on the way there.
A way to defeat creatures gaurding the loot.
A way to disable traps protecting the loot.
A way to transport the loot.

Now several of those involve transportation. Moving from one place to another, finding places, and moving loot. So, that would lead the average adventuring wizard to make a variety of spells to aid all those tasks. So a school of spells for Travel.

So the rest of the things they need involve protecting yourself or beating down other's protection. Survive weather, defeat creatures, disable traps. So then another school of spells for protection and offense. The school of Challenge or something.

This seems to cover most all spells I can think of. Healing would be in challenge. Fly, levitate, rope trick, all transport. Light would be travel, darkness would be challenge. Throw some spells at me and tell me if I've forgotten any that won't work in those.

But, beyond what the spells can do, would be how they can do it. Almost every spell system has something to deliniate how big it can get, how far it can go, how many creatures it can affect. All that becomes the mechanics of the system. As I only want the four levels of spells, 0 through 4, And then the simple success/fail system for difficulties, it should be not to hard to make the rules up to balance the various spells.

For difficulty the range could go:
Level 1 (1 success)
Level 2 (1 success)
Level 2 (2 successes)
Level 3 (1 success)
Level 3 (2 successes)
Level 3 (3 successes)

So, the different spells will have different levels of power, and different levels of difficulities within those levels of power. I need to meditate some more on what atttributes my spells should have, but I think it can work out.

Of course, the schools really still have nothing to do with how the spells work. It's just a way for me to think of things.

Magic and spells

#8

Ok, so lets see what kind of things spells need to have defined to be playable. I think I feel another list coming on:

Area of effect (sq ft or creatures)
Duration
Range
Casting time
Materials

First things first, is there anything I've forgotten on that list?

After that ... I think the most important feature of any spell is how much it can effect. But, it I just use sqaure feet, or other measure, the density of the formation isn't a factor. So, you could be surronded by bandits in an ambush, but there's only one bandit in a given 10 x 10 area, or you could be fighting an insects swarm, and there's hundreds of insects in a 10 x 10 area, or you could be fighting a kraken and there's only part of a tentecle in a 10 x 10 area. The opposite is also true. If you just target on creature, then against a kraken, you're all ok, but plinking off each bug in the insect swarm is going to take you out.

So I can't just use one or the other. I was thinking that the "Challenge" or "Combat" spells would be the ones that target creatures and the "Travel" spells would target areas. That'd be another easy way to adjudicate new spells.

Duration is a pretty easy one to define, I'd just have to set up a defined turn, and then have the combat spells go in turns or instaneous, and the travel ones last hours to days.

Range is pretty easy too, but I think it's less important than duration. Range ends up being about position, and most of the time, that won't be important. Short range spells aren't common. Maybe the range could even be figured out from what the rest of the spell does. You have a spell targeting 10 sq ft, and lasting two hours, then Level 0 could have a range of less than 20 feet away, level 1 could have of up to 15 to 45 feet away, and so on.

Casting time could end up being like range, and with the rituals taking much longer than spells, it would be an interesting way to provide a variety of spells.

Materials would be like a requirement needed for certain power levels, so if you want to be able to target more than you could normally for that level, you would need some materials. The more you want to go outside the limits of your spell level, you would need more of the material, or the material would be harder to get. Try handing a barrel to a dragon and having him say "You want me to do what in this?!"

So the spells effects would be a way to define what you can do a given level with a given difficulty. I'll post more later when I have some more time.

Magic and spells

#9

If you haven't guessed by now, I'm doing all this to get it out, like when I talk to myself. Moving on ...

So to sort spells into categories, we need to start doing tests on them, asking questions to sort them out.

1: What is the spell's area of effect?

Just to start arbitirarily start defining them, I'd use the next table:

Level 0 - less than 5 sq ft or 3 ft cube
Level 1 - 5 sq ft to 20 sq ft or 3 ft to 9 ft cube
Level 2 - 20 sq ft to 50 sq ft or 9 ft to 15 ft cube
Level 3 - more than 50 ft sq or 15 ft cube

and for combat spells

Level 0 - 1 creature
Level 1 - 2 to 4 creatures
Level 2 - 5 to 10 creatures
Level 3 - more than 10 creatures

2: How long does it last?

Just because they need them, I'd define a turn as 30 seconds. Sounds good. Whatever. But I do thing that there need to be differences in spells and rituals here, since rituals last much, much longer. Travel spells first.

Level 0 - 5 mins
Level 1 - 1 hour
Level 2 - 2 hours
Level 3 - 8 hours

And now travel rituals

Level 0 - 4 hours
Level 1 - 8 hours
Level 2 - 24 hours
Level 3 - 1 week

Then combat spells.

Level 0 - 1 turn
Level 1 - 3 turns
Level 2 - 6 turns
Level 3 - 10 turns

And finally, combat rituals

Level 0 - 2 turns
Level 1 - 10 turns
Level 2 - 30 turns
Level 3 - 60 turns

So, in retrospect, should I have different areas of effects for spells and rituals, or are they ok as is? The biggest differences between spells and rituals are the durations and casting times, so I think that the areas of effect are fine as is, and adding more would just confuse everything.

I think range might need to be different for rituals because of the nature of them. It's kinda hard to do a minor curse on somebody when you're range is only 10 ft, but for combat or travel schools, I think that the same ranges apply for both.

Spell ranges
Level 0 - 10 feet
Level 1 - 25 feet
Level 2 - 100 feet
Level 3 - 200

For rituals, I would have to change range to instead be a requirement for the focus of the spell. So, lower level spells need more specific items to focus on the target. Other than that, I think that miles would be more appropriate to measure these ranges in.

Level 0 - Hair, nails or other body part
Level 1 - Clothing or personal item
Level 2 - Something they've touched or used
Level 3 - Thier name.

Now all that seems pretty arbitrary, and I'm not that happy with it. Anyone have a better idea for handling that sort of thing?

All for now, I hope somebody has some insight on things, I'm open to suggestions. I'll figure out casting times and materials next...

Magic and spells

#10

Too all concerned: (sounds ominous, doesn't it?

I am preparing to close this thread in a couple of weeks, about the 23 or so, and start a new thread for Alpha spells and magic. This current thread is more of a draft copy, just kicking around ideas. I'm in the middle of overhauling the system, just basically arbitrarily putting labes and measures on things, then actually playtesting with a couple friends. In theory at least. Id' rather not play with myself.

:oops: Ignore that last bit, would you?

I may or may not have a spell point system in place of the rather weak idea I had earlier, but I need to just break out the pencil and paper, maybe an Excel sheet, god forbid, and see what may come.

Any closing remarks are most welcomed before I post up the new thread. Thank you and good night!

Magic and spells

#11

You are doing quite good.

(My system will also need more flesh in the Magic section, so please continue. I eagerly await more of this analysis of magic...)

Material components are not for the general use, would slow everything too much. So use them for:
a) boosting existing spells
b) casting special spells, ie rituals

I think all rituals should use materials, it is one of the key differences between them and "ordinary" spells. Somehow, when I hear ritual, I always imagine voo-doo first, with belongings of the victim, one chicken and all the stuff. Make rituals special also in this way.

The tables you have created can be a sort of default or maximum for all spells. Most spells will be different from this. If there will be a Killer-Look spell (slay anyone with a single look, duh), it will be a Level 3 spell or ritual. But should it have both the maximum range and duration? I think not. On the other hand, very powerful rituals could easily overcome all this maximum values, so... hmmm. Needs more precise guidelines.

One think I am tinkering with (but may not be useful in your system), is growing of a spell's power. Let's say you have a Spark cantrip. If you cast the same spell, but a bit better, with some more magic it becomes Fire, good for light or a bit of damage. Give it more, and you have Fireball, maybe Fiery Cascade, or Firewall, or anything. In my system it would be the same spell/skill, with every effect having a different MP cost and diffilcuty. So if you specialize in a single spell, you can get more effects with higher mastery. Similar stuff can be done with healing spells (from Little Kiss, through Cure Medium Wounds, up to Revive Dead) and some others.

Magic and spells

#12

So spell lines are just the same spell with increasing levels of power? Sounds reasonable (in fact probable) to me.

Magic and spells

#13

I like your idea Manfred, although I'm going to keep tinkering with my thinking for now. I've heard of other systems like that one before, and they've worked nicely. I think GURPS uses something like that... The were good and fun to play.

Thanks for your thoughts guy, I need the help. *bows* :D

Magic and spells

#14

I've heard of other systems like that one before, and they've worked nicely. I think GURPS uses something like that... The were good and fun to play.

Hmmm... did I invent the wheel once again?

*searching*