themes

1. themes

   #1

   I'm not talking about themes like the horror ebook but just in general about fantasy vs sci-fi. I originally had the idea that we will do alternating issues of fantasy and sci-fi but then Fan had the idea that we have mix it altogether and do it magazine style. So I'm just throwing out pros and cons of both approaches out for discussion.
   
   If we do it my way, I think it will be a "cleaner" product in terms of target audience. I know there's some overlap b/w fantasy and sci-fi readers but I don't think whether the overlap is large or small. Personally, I'm an avid fantasy fan but don't really want to touch sci-fi. Also, this way it gives me more time for work turnaround cos I'll admit that I do take a long time. But then again, I don't think time is so much an issue here in this starting phase.
   
   If we do it Fan's way, the target audience is obviously different but that's fine, we could build up a readership that enjoys both fantasy and sci-fi. It also means that there isn't this alternative issue where you can't participate under my approach which is somewhat awkward given our small numbers.
   
   

   This is just an idea I had, but if we consider it more like a magazine than a series of books, we wouldn't need a standard look and feel for the entire book, and instead would have the freedom to customize the look and feel for the content of each "article". Depending on the category of the magazine, we could also accommodate a wider variety of content in this format. - Fan

2. Re: themes

   #2

   I do like the idea of a cleaner product, and agree that would be the best way to do it. However, pragmaticly we may want to just take what we can get.

3. Re: themes

   #3

   That's the way my thoughts are leaning towards too.

4. Re: themes

   #4

   I was actually speeking of the look and feel more than content. If you look at a magazine, every article looks different. Different style of art, different layout, etc.
   
   If we do it magazine style, then we could have each layoutist layout a single article without necessarily having to worry about having a unified look across the entire book/zine. That may or may not be a good thing, but it is something to consider.

5. Re: themes

   #5

   I assume this is the preferred thread, Moonlake?

6. Re: themes

   #6

   Yes, I know convos sometimes wander but I guess I'm a bit of an organisation freak and prefer threads to stay on topic. But I mean, I don't want to be dictatorial over sth trivial like that.

7. Re: themes

   #7

   That's good, because being dictatorial makes me behave in a very incendiary manner (My spirit animal is Tyler Durden). I know that I have this reaction, and work to keep a handle on it, but it's there.
   
   SO! That being cleared up.
   
   What drew you to fantasy, if not dragons and whatnot, and follow up question, does that have any relevance to your stance on sci-fi?
   
   

8. Re: themes

   #8

   What drew me to fantasy? Lores and world building meta, things that let me know I'm not in real world but in the fantasy world. My all-time fav remains LoR and my taste runs towards epic fantasy. I guess the 2nd point with the world building meta possibly explained how I disliked sci-fi. That and the fact that I felt like I had leftover trauma from my cousin's occasional attempts to explain to me how particular tech in Star Wars really work. I did high school physics and I sort of sucked at it and sci-fi reminds me too much of high school physics.

9. Re: themes

   #9

   Well, Star Trek tech with its fervent attempt to be explained often arguments itself into a corner of bull-poop and handwavium. No surprise there :D
   Anyways, I'm OK with both sci-fi and fantasy.

10. Re: themes

    #10

    So do you think you would like to join in on this as a writer, Echo? If so, please PM Axle your email.

11. Re: themes

    #11

    Star Wars is Space Opera, and shouldn't be treated as hard science fiction, not with all the laser swords, jedi magic, and rubber aliens. If you just let it be what it is, it's beautiful. That's one of the major things that killed the prequel trilogy, it ventured over into political science and attempted to bridge over into modern events, to the point that certain characters were modeled not off of archetypes but off of actual people, ala Nute Gunray is an author expy of Newt Gingrich. It poisoned the waters of the fantastic with the politics. The original trilogy ran with the basic Evil Empire, because fine, evil space empire is evil, and I don't need a modern parallel or contemporary knowledge of politics to understand why Vader and Palpatine are bad guys. Vader is literally the DARK FATHER that Luke must atone with, and then overcome. It's the standard Hero's Journey.
    
    I am afraid that with the hints of this Imperial First Order we are going to see SW dig deeper into politics and secret societies when what we want is laser sword battles, X-wing fighters blowing things up, and the heroes coming together and saving the day.
    
    Star Trek has made a point of being socially relevant while telling the science fiction story tropes. The original series dealt with ethnic and gender issues, what with having an international crew. Having an Asian, a Russian, and a black woman all as bridge officers, that was unheard of, and in the midst of the Cold War, they were peaceful explorers who were not motivated by fear, violence, or greed. The Next Generation addressed out fear of advancing technology by introducing us to the Borg, the manifestation of technophobia, as well as the finer points of morality and diplomacy. Repeat with weakening resolve for DS9 (religion and military occupation) and Voyager (the previous lack of Geri Ryan in a one piece body suit) and Enterprise... the lack of mediocre fanfic in Star Trek? I guess?
    
    There needs to be a new Star Trek series that takes a stone cold look at what we are now, and deal with government surveillance, intelligence agencies, military occupations, and civil disobedience in the face of an increasingly paranoid central government. We need a new captain to look at the latest round of intel, the latest instructions from Star Fleet command, and ask themselves if they are still holding to their oath, or if they have become nothing more than a disposable asset of the military intelligence force.

12. Re: themes

    #12

    I must say, I have very little first hand exp of sci-fi except for Star Wars the original movies and this series I picked up from Janny Wurts that started off as pure fantasy but ended with a sci-fi ending that left a bad taste in my mouth. To be honest, I'm perfectly fine with the original Star Wars movies but it's my cousin trying to bring me into the convo with all the Star Wars books that he was reading that had all the mumbo-jumbo explanation for how particular tech actually works (actually I don't even know that's the case but that was the gist I got from my cousin's retelling of them) that turns me off it.
    
    Anyway, I think why you asked me those two questions were trying to know a little more about me as a writer and what I would be comfortable writing. The short answer is that I can only ever write fantasy because of this personal bias against sci-fi. Having said that, I never intended for this epub to be monopolised by fantasy only . I know that there are both fantasy and sci-fi writers on the Citadel and there are writers who write in both genres. As you can see, the very first post in this thread (which was posted by me) was basically inviting a 'debate' whether we want to do alternating issues of fantasy only and sci-fi only OR have each issue containing work of both genres. I mean, MH apparently said that fantasy and sci-fi are not separate genres by themselves but are sub-genres of speculative fiction.

13. Re: themes

    #13

    I was hoping for an inclusive project as well.

14. Re: themes

    #14

    Yes, I was curious to know what sort of writer you are, and what the hang ups and quirks might be. As for sci-fi versus fantasy, I appreciate both, but prefer the later. Star Wars and Star Trek are both franchises I care about, that also happen to have deviated from their soul material, hence my tirade.
    
    Minor: most writers on the Citadel are fantasy, and the Citadel is predominantly fantasy. If it wasn't for me and Siren, there would be very little besides genre swords and sorcery.
    
    So I previous answered that my other writing group is erotica, and one of the things they have on target is what the reader wants. That's the stick in the eye there, not writing what you specifically want, but writing for others. One of the things about writing for others is knowing what other people want to read.
    
    In the fantasy tab at Amazon we have the following:
    
    Alternate History
    Anthologies (this is where we would probably end up with the eventual ePub for profit, but not right now, so calm yo' bits)
    Arthurian
    Coming of Age
    Dark
    Epic
    Historical
    History and Criticism
    Humorous
    Magical Realism
    Myths & Legends
    New Adult & College (wat?)
    Paranormal & Urban
    Superheroes
    Sword and Sorcery
    
    I think that is functionally a better lay out of the theme I was attempting to explain.
    
    Is this doable, or does the muse immediately cringe and flee from any sort of direction?

15. Re: themes

    #15

    @ Scras: yep, sounds doable to me, my muse would only cringe if themes are more narrow than the Amazon tabs you have listed (and possibly if we are actually doing an anthology for a particular race of common fantasy trope but pretty sure that's just a problem with me). I think my current story falls very well into myths&legends for example.

16. Re: themes

    #16

    I *did* write some sci-fi... let's call it erotica. But not posted here :D anyways, yes, bring it on

17. Re: themes

    #17

    Echo, you the newcomer to Google drive? Just wondering cos I'm sort of keeping tabs on who's who on Google (opened up a specific thread for that but still keeping everyone anonymous to non-participants in this venture as per Citadel traditions although I'm still anonymous on Google by virtue of the fact that I opened my Google account in the name of Moonlake rather than my real name)

18. Re: themes

    #18

    Reading the latest SSF I mentioned I note that it includes both science fiction and fantasy. The first novella in their is mytho-historical story of French peasant who achieves knighthood and the moral journey that surviving an association with power requires. Later there is a steam punk novella and several modern sci-fi stories.  How do we know the project won't  have larger appeal if it covers a broader range of speculative fiction and styles?  I hope you won't turn away non-conventual works. I think the citadel represents a good cross section of the market. What are we reading?

19. Re: themes

    #19

    That's what I'm saying, I'm only comfortable writing standard fantasy but I'm turning away nothing from others as long as it stays within either of these genres in the broadest sense. Longspeak asked me whether urban fantasy plus horror is okay and I said yes. I don't think there is a need to segregate into very fine genres or very fine themes at this point and I think we are now at consensus on this (at least, the part of the writer's group that materialised to say something about it which is the majority).
    
    @Axle, what is the last question really asking? In general or are you referring to this homework that you suggested we do- look at existing ezines and get some take-home msg from them? If the latter, I'm sorry to say that I've been complacent in doing it and still hasn't read any ezines. And I've said elsewhere how my circumstances have changed in terms of time commitments.

20. Re: themes

    #20

    I meant if you buy ebooks or fiction publications that might resemble ours what do you read on-line.  What draws you to these fiction publications.
    
    I read with semi-regularity in the speculative fiction genres.
    Lightspeed, Fantasy and Science Fiction Magazine, Beneath Ceaseless Skies,
    
    Less Frequently I read Plasma Frequency and Bourbon Pen Magazine. 

21. Re: themes

    #21

    I don't actually read ebooks or ezines, not in English anyway. I read online novels in Chinese which is more like serials, writing is usually crappy but you get sucked in cos story is published in serial format with daily updates of around 3K-10K, sorta like fast food if normal books is a main course for me. I hate reading works of length on screen in general, I was gonna invest some time into reading ezines for homework as you suggested for the Strolenati epub venture but well this and that held me up.

22. Re: themes

    #22

    Having said the above, I think of more relevance to your question, Axle, is that I read these online novels and short story collections (on hard copy borrowed from my local library but I think what we're aiming to do for this venture is same as a collection of short stories) is that they function as light reading for me, sth that I could read in b/w fantasy epics that I love to immerse myself in. In short, while I love immersion, being immersed too much is too much a good thing that | can't handle so I need to put light reading in b/w and that's when I might pick up a short story collection (I could also pick up a mystery book). Another thing that I find advantageous of a short story collection over a normal novel is that I can afford to be more adventurous in picking up books. Something I have with reading English books normally is that I tend to limit myself with comfort writers and I basically just read fantasy and mystery. But with short story collections and online novels, I can safely venture onto genres that I don't read normally cos I feel safe in reading just a few chapters and then abandoning the particular book if I don't like how it is written. With physical books, I'm very selective at the stage of picking it up from my local lib., I reject a lot of books if I don't like the abstract, behaving like if I picked up a book that's not to my taste, I will get traumatised for life (no idea why I behaved that way but that's how I was like). Now I'm trying to branch a little in terms of genre for the sake of improving my writer's craft. But this is a quite recent decision and anyway that doesn't have a bearing on what you were asking.

23. Re: themes

    #23

    I gonna write up stuff on the theme of shape shifter
    
    You okay with the theme Scras?

24. Re: themes

    #24

    So general fantasy shape shifter?
    
    Is everyone on board with this?

25. Re: themes

    #25

    I thought we're delaying the finalisation of narrow themes until we actually get more work from people? I'm on board with shape shifter of course since my story fits in (and Axle's). I don't know about others.

26. Re: themes

    #26

    If were doing shapeshifters I prob out. I might be able to fit one or two of my poems in but not sure. No hard feekings, I'm just not into the tight theme Idea. I'll just gradualy post my poems here. Good Luck!!!!!!

27. Re: themes

    #27

    See what I mean? That's why I said we should delay deciding on a theme. Cos we all said a theme isn't important. It's a marketing tool, nothing more.

28. Re: themes

    #28

    The poems I've posted here are getting no interest so I'll leave the ones on the ePub for you guys to use or not. At such an early stage so much bickering is a bad sign for things to come. If there is any need to do some minor editing on what I have alreay posted, I'll do that but I have enuf stress thank you and I am way too emotionally invested in my poetry. Mybe I'll feel diferant in a few weeks. The one short story I had in mind could easily be changed to shapeshifter, but I had wanted to stick w/ the poetry. Lifes too short........

29. Re: themes

    #29

    I would NOT use reception on the main site as any indicator of anything.  The level of commentary in general is too low to use that to judge.
    
    

30. Re: themes

    #30

    All I ment was if they were not getting anywhere here I would leave them on the ePub. I know when I look at subs to read, fiction is at the very bottom for me too.I would think poetry is even lower yet. Look at Longspeak's feedback. I'm pulling back,not out.

31. Re: themes

    #31

    That's the purpose of writing deliberately.

32. Re: themes

    #32

    Look at Longspeak's feedback.

    
    Wait, I had feedback?
    
    Anyway, this whole "is there/isn't there" a theme is annoying. Find a consensus, guys.

33. Re: themes

    #33

    You want to know what's really annoying Longspeak?
    
    It's annoying when you're asked for something, and when you ask what they want, you get a non-committal shrug and a you know whatever.
    
    That's annoying.
    
    I'm not just going to write 'something' for this.

34. Re: themes

    #34

    @Scras: I think then it comes down to different way of operating as a writer b/w you and someone like Longspeak and me. Actually I can't speak for Longspeak but for me personally, I cannot work with a pre-imposed theme at the start of the writing process because I have enough difficulty working out the different elements that will fit together into a short story. I know I want to write fantasy and only fantasy but for me, I need to search for the right combo of plot and characters for my story (actually plot I have no problem, it's characters). Add to this the stress of needing to cater for a specific theme when I'm still forming my basic idea, then my brain goes into deadlock.
    
    Your analogy, however, indicates that you probably have a reverse problem to what I describe- something akin to what Mourn described to me as "having too many ideas that I could write up and I don't know how to choose among them". When the discussion of themes came up, I was sincerely under the impression that we were discussing it as a marketing tool and not part of a basic way of operating as a writer. To be honest, from what you just wrote now I don't really know how we can really cater for such a polar extreme in the basic way of operating. But a sort of middle ground I propose is would you able to write up something based on not a single theme but a list of acceptable themes on a long term basis, Scras? If that's okay with you, I think we should start compiling a list of themes acceptable to everyone/majority of writers within the group and then you can write to one of these themes whilst me and Longspeak can happily write anything we want and then later reverse-engineer to see which of the acceptable themes that our stories concord to. Sounds sensible?

35. Re: themes

    #35

    I don't have the problem of too many ideas, I don't have enough time.
    
    I work a full time job
    I cook and I clean
    I have two horses I take care of
    I have my own writing that I'm working on
    I have personal projects that don't involve writing, ala woodworking and making things
    I have a fix it list around the house, fixing things that are broken, need sprucing up, and so forth. #AbsenteeLandlord
    
    So that being said, I have a finite amount of time to spend working on a project for this. And with that being said I'm going to write ONE thing, not two or three and whittle it down to whatever the final decision is.

36. Re: themes

    #36

    @Scras: me and Axle had envisioned this project as a more collaborative enterprise between writers. But if you are so time constrained for this particular enterprise, then I suggest 2 solutions for you:
    - write whatever story of fantasy/sci-fi you feel like it and then just leave it. You will get comments and edits and you can change or not in your own time. As for your story not fitting in with other stories, don't worry, leave it to the rest of us with more time on our hands to find a common ground/theme OR
    - wait until more of us had started posting up stories and found a common theme and then we will notify you and you can start writing up one and one only story for this venture
    
    In case you find my tone condescending/offensive, I just want to say I'm not trying to be so. I'm just offering you what I think are some practical solutions to work around this time constraint you have but I'm a forthright person so sometimes people read too much into my literal words.

37. Re: themes

    #37

    I don't know if you can draw a parallel to this, but it isn't an uncommon occurrence here. You get a group of friends together, and everyone wants to go out and get some drinks and something to eat. But no one will decide where to go, because one person is gluten intolerant, and another doesn't want to try the new Mexican place downtown, then there is the one person who knows exactly what they want, but can't say it when they're asked because they panic. Then there is the person who doesn't care what we go get, except not that. Or that. And not that.
    
    And honestly at this point I'm just annoyed by the entire process. I just want to get something to eat, because I'm making an effort at being social.
    
    I don't need guidance, or anything explained to me. Please don't take my tone as hostile, I am by no means angry, I just want you to understand where I am coming from in this.
    
    Let's just go.
    
    

38. Re: themes

    #38

    @Scras, at this point, I think quite a few of us are annoyed, myself included. I understand the urge to mention more practical aspects of this enterprise (I have them too) but Axle persuaded me that we should focus on the biz of writing and in fact have that as our sole focus for now and so I didn't feel it was good timing for this enterprise to branch off discussion of all these other practical stuff which a theme falls under.
    
    So with your analogy, Scras, if you just want to eat, why don't you go with solution 1 that I suggested- just write a short story that you feel like writing, post it up on Google and wait for feedback from others of the epub group? This is pretty much the mode of operation for a normal Citadel sub except that you are now writing a short story instead of a sub, right? And I mean, this enterprise is pretty much very experimental, we can just fudge things at the start, try out different ways of doing different things whenever we feel like it, that kind of thing. I know that sounds very unstructured and horrible to someone who's by nature very structured (sometimes I fall into that category) but well, let's face the truth here, we are still all hobbyists and no one had much experience with all these epub biz and that's what comes from a collaboration between unexperienced people for a particular venture. So we should brush aside all these concerns of practicality, efficiency etc. That's for a latter date when we are more on track. This is the initial stage where everything's in a big pot so we shouldn't forcibly impose structure (cos later we might scratch everything anyway). So then why not just go with the flow?
    
    So in conclusion, I agree that we as a group should just write. Get the first story out of yourself/refine it at the moment and then once we have enough inputs for a volume, we start on all these other stuff. I really think we should put up a group motto for now as per Axle said: Write. Just Write. Nothing Else.

39. Re: themes

    #39

    
    You want to know what's really annoying Longspeak?

    
    Condescending Rhetorical Questions?
    
    Look, I just wanted to know everyone is on the same page, so I would know if the piece I have in mind is worth pursuing.
    
    There is no consensus. So I'm just going back to my own Delta Factor stuff.

40. Re: themes

    #40

    Longspeak you are the smoothest writer on the Citadel.  Any project you are working on is likely worthy of your time (and your reader's time), because the end product will be good solid meat and potatoes prose.  To be fair, I think Scras was trying to bond/commiserate with you over being annoyed. 
    
    
    I am going to submit an amazon Epub. As part of my career I have assembled multi-author reviews of nonfiction topics twice before and multiauthor primary literature a handful of times.  I can do this. I can do this in spite of the fact that my grammar is terrible, my spelling is worse. If you are curious I can send you my CV (it likely has a spelling error in it) .  I have never self-published on Amazon. I have never published fiction. 
    
    I am not going to do this because I am qualified or have excess free time. Neither is true.  But because it strikes me as challenging.  Because Scras was inspired to do it.  For me the process and prospect are even a little intimidating.  I like that. And if strolen can build this whole website while working full time with kids I know I can upload s**t to amazon (I rarely watch TV or play video games, I need hobbies to keep my mind off work).
    
    I am going to include all of Aramax's poetry.  Hopefully I will have some help in formatting. If need be I will pay for an outside proofreader and a reviewer. Hopefully Strolen will help me put this all under the banner of the Citadel. 
    
    Poetry is transcendent it does not need to fit a theme.
    
    But the prose can fit a theme.  The theme will be Shape-shifter, metamorphosis, double-gangers, lycanthropy, shamanism gone to far and so on.  The stories need to take the things that define a person and explore them, take them apart and put them back together, trash em or inflate them till they are like distorted clown face on a balloon ready to pop.  The stories need to be speculative fiction.  That means sci-fi or fantasy. I want at least five stories.  I not going to tell you if your story is good or bad. You are not going to get a score. This is a judgement free process. The default is all stories are good, I just want to make sure that they are as clear as you want them to be. 
    
    I am going to find cover art.  If I have to pay for it I will.
    
    I would like a roughly 1000 word easy on the shape-shifter mythos (a forward), journalism style with at least three real world references (no wikis).  Review stuff like selkies to the T-1000 and explain the whole lesbian werewolf subgenre (kidding, I mean who doesn't understand that?).  Tell us what roots our fear in doppelgangers or where we find hope in them (looking at you Scras). 
    
    I want a roughly 1000 easy on the Citadel (looking at strolen). 
    
    What I don't want. I don't want are five stories all set in the genre rich tolkien-esque western europe inspired settings that don't need a lot of unpacking.  I'd like one story like that, but I would like new worlds, modern worlds, fantastic worlds that are as interesting as the story themselves.
    
    I would like variation in the length on the stories as well.  If we get a flagship novella that would be great (looking at you Longspeak). Finally perhaps we can do one metafiction piece. What is metafiction, the Citadel is metafiction, but so William Gibson's short story "13 Views of a Cardboard City".   
    
    Any one of you could do this, take the lead, hopefully, if this works you can take the lead on the next one.  You will have benefit of learning from my mistakes. But I am going to do this if it is just Moonlake, Aramax and myself. I hope others will join.
    
    Inspiration: Metamorphosis (By Kafka), Shadow Over Innsmouth (By Lovecraft), Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyder (By Stevenson)
    But Shapeshifting is a popular troupe. We can do this. 
    
    Scras you practically have already with that snake woman story on the site.

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