Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#1

The subject tells it all but I guess I can explain some of the details better.

A small warning. It is hard to describe all the thoughts, let alone the discussion in sane terms. Try and explain Cthulhu and you will know what is in my brain trying to get typed. But I am very excited about this idea, this growing idea. It will need a lot of work on the frontend to get it ready...but it won't take that long when we decide to jump.

The story
This one time at band camp...
So there we were, chatting about forum software when Johnn shoots a crossbow bolt out of the blue.
The bolt flying: "Would you be interested in spinning off a forum for me?'
Hitting the armor: "Or maybe instead, there could be a level-up power-combo if Roleplaying Tips partnered with Strolen's somehow."

And so, after I regained my breath after the impact, the conversation began and quickly spun out of control.

The Vision
RolePlayingTips (RPT) and the Citadel would be in a complimentary, symbiotic relationship. Each site independent yet very much helping each other out. The Citadel would be the host, tech and building blocks of this brave new world while RPT would drive traffic to us, wield mad ebook and editing skills and use their advertising might to spin us into a new era.

The idea is to harness the Citadel's and RPT's creativity, to a point, and give it a wider audience through ebooks. We would have more focused quests, prizes, and do other events which will create content and provide the ability to market and publish ebooks to the world. The initial focus would be on hosting some kick ass quests and community events and turning those into ebooks, all would be done with the author's explicit permission. If you don't want to share your stuff, no issue at all!!

Above all, the community comes first! Nothing is intended to do anything to disrupt what we have, however, there will need to be some changes to make it work. It is up to us to decide how those changes form and what they do. The Citadel will remain a free resource for people to browse and comment to their heart's desire, but for those that want to be involved in the Citadel and RPT ebook revolution, untold glory awaits!

The Citadel and RPT will become a creative powerhouse to rival Marvel (TM all rights reserved) :). The initial plan is to make 15 page ebooks, using author approved content, to market and sell them. The authors will get a free copy of a professionally developed ebook and author credits, obviously. There will be opportunities to highlight authors and the profile page will reflect any publishings and whatever else we can do to announce the accomplishment. Oh, and of course there will prizes that come with these quests! :)

The Future
The overall goal is to rule the RPG world, as per usual. We do what we have always wanted to do here at the Citadel, get our content out to the world. Through this partnership, your submissions will be going out to a much bigger audience and drawing people into the Citadel to join our crusade. We get the influx of new, creative blood that can provide a surge of creativity and shared ideas and the world gets to see your stuff in published ebooks.

Of course, there is much more to it. But I think that is the groundwork for the partnership and answering specific concerns and questions would provide a greater benefit than me continuing my banter too much more. Bottom line, there is nothing about this that happens without your input. My way of change and updates always gets the community involved and this is no different.

Here is a direct quote from one of Johnn's emails:

I just worry about folks thinking we're being sneaky or getting greedy, ruining the goodwill culture you and the admins have created. So whatever I can do to keep that going is important to me.

A small idea - maybe we host an Ask Me Anything thread as a way to introduce me to the community and give people a chance to ask the tough questions and get them out of the way honestly up front?

So, Johnn from RPT is invited into the folds of the Strolenati and has been given the link to watch this thread. So ask your questions, let us know the concerns and throw out any thoughts you have.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#2

It's hard to tell for sure, since I don't grok exactly what this will mean, but my initial reaction is mixed. Excited, certainly; I love the idea of a wider audience and being pushed harder to be better. Also nervous, since you never know what unintended effects can come out of a major change like this. What kind of users will be drawn in? How will it affect the informal nature of things here?

So a little bit :mace:, some :thumbup:, more than a little :ahh:, and somewhat :chain:

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#3

That is good feedback, thanks.

How would you describe the ideal user?

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#4

One that gushes over my brilliant writing, of course :P

In my opinion, an ideal user is always looking to push themselves to be better, is willing to accept and give fair (though sometimes harsh) criticisms, and is at least a little insane (but in a fun way.)

We joke, we encourage each other to be creative through chat, comments, and forum posts, and there is a refreshing lack of drama.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#5

I should point out that I've only been around here for less than 3 years, so I don't know what other kinds of evolutions the site has seen.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#6

One that gushes over my brilliant writing, of course :P

In my opinion, an ideal user is always looking to push themselves to be better, is willing to accept and give fair (though sometimes harsh) criticisms, and is at least a little insane (but in a fun way.)

We joke, we encourage each other to be creative through chat, comments, and forum posts, and there is a refreshing lack of drama.

Heh, those are great qualities.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#7

Let me just say I think it's a great idea! Change is good for the soul, and the potential for more exposure and new members will be revitalizing.

What kind of time frame are you looking to do this in? Days? Weeks? Months?

I'll sleep on it and come back with my questions :D

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#8

Hours!!!

And Mystic, I will guarantee your talent will be known as far away as Australia, Antartica (per SE's detailed map location of his house in his profile) and Italy!

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#9

There! There it was...change. :)

JK

This will be a methodical process with no surprises!! No worries. It will all be announced, discusses and mapped out so you know what is coming and can provide any input.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#10

In my opinion, an ideal user is always looking to push themselves to be better, is willing to accept and give fair (though sometimes harsh) criticisms, and is at least a little insane (but in a fun way.)

Holy carp! I'M your idea of an ideal user!?? :P

I'm also excited and nervous, RPT was what first brought me here, many years ago(though I only joined up recently).
I'm still subscribed to your newsletter Johnn, I used to check out your site quite frequently, but then you almost stopped updating it. So now I just take a day a month or so, to dig out my inbox and copy paste your newsletters to a Word file, and read it when I find the time(which sadly happens very rarely). One thing I've always been wanting to ask you is, why is your name spelt like that???

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#11

Because 2 n's are better than one!

Heh.

It's just the way it is on the name certificate.

Sure does help in a Google world, though!

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#12

That is good feedback, thanks.

How would you describe the ideal user?

The ideal user is a writer, a creative person, and is willing to give genuine feedback and constructive criticism when needed and also willing to accept the same. The ideal user is also passionate and involved with what they are writing about

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#13

The conversation continues on this and we have a loose idea where we are going.

Here is one of the major concerns/challenge that we need your opinion on.

The idea is to have subscriptions set up on Strolen's Citadel. For those familiar with Paizo (I am not but I took some quick looks at it) it would be kinda sort of based on that a little bit.
http://paizo.com/paizo/about/subscriptions

Nothing that complex though.

In a nutshell, you purchase a subscription for $5-$10-$20 a month and you would get about 4 ebooks a month with that. This includes ebooks that Johnn is making for GMMastery and through RPG Tips and such as well as what content we use out of the citadel to put together nice and pretty like. Generally, those books would be priced in the $5-$10 range. There would also be the possibility of one-offs that are larger but all that will come naturally with some discussion. All these are "free" to subscribers so to speak.

Before you ask, nothing really changes with what we have right now, free access to content etc.

However, that subscription fee will come into play later with some of the software upgrades we will be making with the site. There are some ideas that will be specifically for subscribers. Some perks if you will. The core site remains free, same as now, and any changes behind a paywall of sorts (or possibly just requiring registration for some stuff depending on what we think) will be slow methodical improvements as we go.

So one question is what would be a reasonable monthly subscription rate that would be worth getting about 4 ebooks a month? What would you be willing to pay for a monthly subscription at the Citadel?

And as we talk through, we may come up with different packages with associated prices to better fit what individuals want.

So one question is what would be a reasonable monthly subscription rate that would be worth getting about 4 ebooks a month? What would you be willing to pay for a monthly subscription at the Citadel with these known and unknown perks.

What features would you want added that you would be willing to pay for? What would you want for return for certain prices. And just pretend we are up and going and everything is working like clockwork. What would you expect for your hard earned dimes (euro, whatever)?

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#14

The conversation continues on this and we have a loose idea where we are going.

Here is one of the major concerns/challenge that we need your opinion on.

The idea is to have subscriptions set up on Strolen's Citadel. For those familiar with Paizo (I am not but I took some quick looks at it) it would be kinda sort of based on that a little bit.
http://paizo.com/paizo/about/subscriptions

Nothing that complex though.

In a nutshell, you purchase a subscription for $5-$10-$20 a month and you would get about 4 ebooks a month with that. This includes ebooks that Johnn is making for GMMastery and through RPG Tips and such as well as what content we use out of the citadel to put together nice and pretty like. Generally, those books would be priced in the $5-$10 range. There would also be the possibility of one-offs that are larger but all that will come naturally with some discussion. All these are "free" to subscribers so to speak.

Before you ask, nothing really changes with what we have right now, free access to content etc.

However, that subscription fee will come into play later with some of the software upgrades we will be making with the site. There are some ideas that will be specifically for subscribers. Some perks if you will. The core site remains free, same as now, and any changes behind a paywall of sorts (or possibly just requiring registration for some stuff depending on what we think) will be slow methodical improvements as we go.

So one question is what would be a reasonable monthly subscription rate that would be worth getting about 4 ebooks a month? What would you be willing to pay for a monthly subscription at the Citadel?

And as we talk through, we may come up with different packages with associated prices to better fit what individuals want.

So one question is what would be a reasonable monthly subscription rate that would be worth getting about 4 ebooks a month? What would you be willing to pay for a monthly subscription at the Citadel with these known and unknown perks.

What features would you want added that you would be willing to pay for? What would you want for return for certain prices. And just pretend we are up and going and everything is working like clockwork. What would you expect for your hard earned dimes (euro, whatever)?

I typed out several long answers to this, but none of them fit what I really want to say.

NO.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#15

LOL!

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#16

I think I need your longer, frustrated version to make sense of why you disagree with it. You can PM me too, but I need to hear what you guys are thinking before we move forward. Right now we are brainstorming, coming up with ways to make Citadel Publishing a reality. We have sort of proved to ourselves that we can't do it alone. Johnn has the audience that wants our stuff in a nice package and he has the distro, time, skill and knowledge to turn it into ebooks. Ebooks which we will have a say in how they turn out. Once we figure out the base product that we can create, then we start doing quests that will bring in sponsors and great prizes and more targeted ebooks. With that and RPT we will have an influx of new people and new authors and more stuff. Through all this I have specific goals for the site to build towards to make it more valuable to you as writers. I still build what you want to make the site easier and more useful. All this moves forward to benefit us all.

We are the Strolenati. We have a chance here to do what we have been talking about for ages and none of us know exactly how to do it. And still, even through all this, community is first to me, of course, but to Johnn as well! If it wasn't, you would be hearing about this through an announcement. I have never worked that way and nothing has changed.

And I will pull the guilt trip card, a 2 of hearts so real low in the deck. Many have said (and have proven by generous donations THANK YOU) that the Citadel is something you would willing to pay for as is. I have been happy to support the site and the server upgrades for almost 2 decades with the help of those donations. Plus the countless hours of coding (and fixing what I broke of course). Is the Citadel really not worth maybe $60 bucks a year to you?

Then with the above: All the work we will do to gather content, compile and edit it and all the technical hurdles of making it into a professional looking product. Obviously it is not easy otherwise we would have done it already. And to offer 4 of these a month is no simple task. (Not to mention the considerable chunk of change I put out for the ebook pdf template that we all love). And you understand that if you all want to make exclusive books to sell on your own, this future will make that a reality as well. I know you can do it in other places already, but the plan is to make it so much easier for you to do it here with our help to actually turn it into an ebook.

So I absolutely accept the NO. I have no issue with you not liking the way it is going. But it is going in some direction, which way should we push the cart?

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#17

I've said this in chat, but I should probably say it here also.

After giving this some thought, I'm really sold on the ebook idea (subscription and ala carte) but I'm hesitant about premium features on the site. Not saying I couldn't be convinced, just that I'm skeptical.

And Scras: I really hope you change your mind... I've said this before but I'd really like to see your cosmic era stuff compiled and put in a publishable format.

And just to add: I would be willing to pay $5/month for what I currently get out of the site.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#18

I think I need your longer, frustrated version to make sense of why you disagree with it. You can PM me too, but I need to hear what you guys are thinking before we move forward. Right now we are brainstorming, coming up with ways to make Citadel Publishing a reality. We have sort of proved to ourselves that we can't do it alone. Johnn has the audience that wants our stuff in a nice package and he has the distro, time, skill and knowledge to turn it into ebooks. Ebooks which we will have a say in how they turn out. Once we figure out the base product that we can create, then we start doing quests that will bring in sponsors and great prizes and more targeted ebooks. With that and RPT we will have an influx of new people and new authors and more stuff. Through all this I have specific goals for the site to build towards to make it more valuable to you as writers. I still build what you want to make the site easier and more useful. All this moves forward to benefit us all.

I'm fine with this, because in the past we have done previous collaborations with Johnn and it didn't generate a huge influx of new members then, and I don't suspect that this new venture will bring in a tide of new members. Probably not productive members, anyways.

We are the Strolenati. We have a chance here to do what we have been talking about for ages and none of us know exactly how to do it. And still, even through all this, community is first to me, of course, but to Johnn as well! If it wasn't, you would be hearing about this through an announcement. I have never worked that way and nothing has changed.

I didn't get personally involved in the Strolen eBook project, not really a major deal, just felt like pointing that out.

And I will pull the guilt trip card, a 2 of hearts so real low in the deck. Many have said (and have proven by generous donations THANK YOU) that the Citadel is something you would willing to pay for as is. I have been happy to support the site and the server upgrades for almost 2 decades with the help of those donations. Plus the countless hours of coding (and fixing what I broke of course). Is the Citadel really not worth maybe $60 bucks a year to you?

What are 766 submissions, 3,650 comments, 190 Hall of Honors, 11 Golden Submissions, 4 Quest First places and 4 Quest Second places worth?

I've been here 9 years providing feedback, generating content, squashing spammers, and so forth. I have had access to other forums, some a good deal larger than the Citadel, and they have membership fees in the vicinity of $10-$15

Then with the above: All the work we will do to gather content, compile and edit it and all the technical hurdles of making it into a professional looking product. Obviously it is not easy otherwise we would have done it already. And to offer 4 of these a month is no simple task. (Not to mention the considerable chunk of change I put out for the ebook pdf template that we all love). And you understand that if you all want to make exclusive books to sell on your own, this future will make that a reality as well. I know you can do it in other places already, but the plan is to make it so much easier for you to do it here with our help to actually turn it into an ebook.

4 eBooks a month I think is ridiculous. The Citadel isn't going to be able to generate that much content and keep it's level of quality. And really, how large is the base of subscribers who are going to buy that many eBooks a month? This projection makes me think of sweatshop submissions. Yes, I am being dramatic, but I do feel we will end up with quantity rather than quality.

So I absolutely accept the NO. I have no issue with you not liking the way it is going. But it is going in some direction, which way should we push the cart?

Further comments and concerns:

I am a writer, and not technically a gamer. I have no use for, and no interest in buying eBooks on a monthly basis, especially considering that I would effectively be producing content for, and then buying said content. Even at a discount, this is still a preposterous idea. I'm tight Strolen, I'm real tight. That's how I can afford things like keeping ex-racehorses. I buy my books at the used book store, I shop goodwill, I yardsale. I can save myself time and money and just not participate in the venture.

But I'm not that big of an asshole. I like the idea of generating published material out of the Citadel, but I also like the Citadel the way it is. I come to the Citadel because this is where I write. I like the people here, I like the environment here. I like the open community. Working my shift tonight I found myself not considering where I am going to explore next in the Cosmic Era, or pondering a rebirth of Epoa, or Imbria, I was considering my creative control over the things that I have written here.

I'll share them. I love sharing.

But I'll be damned before I give them away for someone else (Sorry Johnn) to sell and make money on, without me being involved in that profit. You want my work, my participation, in this venture, that's fine. I'm not going to pay for the privilege. I'm not going to accept badges, and trophies. I write, this venture wants my writing, my talents are for sale.

Johnn, you've stated is that this is a commercial interest for you. I come from a long line of Scottish mercenaries and I understand commercial interest. You'll have my sword, but you have to pay for it.

Now why are you going to have to pay me for it?

Besides the fact that I am a writer and a mercenary?

Because these eBooks are going to very likely be swords and sorcery, and system specific. That means writing swords and sorcery (which I don't do very much now, by choice) and either being compensated with said books, or buying said books, and learning the basics of whatever specific system we are going to be writing for. That's work. I get paid to work.

This is very stream of thought. I'm tired, and it's been a long day. This has been running around inside my head, like a dog chasing it's tale.

Just my :twocents:

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#19

Unlike many others who were sceptical at first and warmed to this idea, I was all for it to begin. Now, my enthusiasm has waned a bit and I'm leaning towards Scras's thought process (although probably not as heavily opinionated about it :D )

I am having two (and a half) negative thoughts about the idea. My phone's about out of batteries though so I'll get home and collect my thoughts and expand on 'em either tonight or tomorrow !

At the end of the day though, it's you ship; you haven't steered us wrong yet, Strolen, and change is always good for a bit of excitement. I'll get back to this thread re: my lat

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#20

Early before work for me too. Seems there is always a time crunch.

Scras, you missed some of the chat about some of your thoughts, but bottom line: What you see on the Citadel is what you get. As far as that goes, nothing changes and I will continue to work on pieces to make it better. Anything that is added that we (Strolenati) decide we can offer through the subscription will be bonus things on top of that which won't affect what the Citadel offers now. The subscription will not be necessary to do anything you already doing now. And I am not discounting the time sweat and tears you put into all yours subs by any stretch. The Citadel is ZERO without the authors. Just trying to point out there is a recurring monetary cost to keep this community running as well as my not insignificant time I have spent here. We all have ownership of this site, no doubt about it. That is why we are talking this out and your opinion is so important to Johnn and I.

The commercial aspect is a buzzkill. For me too and it is tough trying to figure out how to make it work for all of us. Moving from a comfortable community like this and trying to make something out of it is not a simple thing. Emotionally or otherwise. Short term, there is no money. Bottom line. Till we actually start something that actually works, all that is a moot point. But if we can move forward and make a profit. There are tons of ways for the authors that contribute to the ebooks can benefit.

Again though, if you think that we are going to take the money and run, than you haven't thought deeper about previous conversations. There is even talk about an even profit sharing to go back into the citadel from everything made with full disclosure on finances through it all so you can see what is happening. We are brainstorming and nothing is solidified. So, if you think we are just swooping down and taking your content and selling it while laughing all the way to the bank...well, really?

But you also have to remember, without an audience, ebook creation method and distribution....there is no money anyway. Content is super important and there is nothing without it. But there is a huge support network to publish too. Writing is fun. Publishing is work. If publishing, advertising and pushing ebooks was fun... we would have done it a long time ago. We need Johnn to do the work for us. He is also taking a huge chance with us shifting his RPT community to us. There is a lot at risk for both sides.

As far as traffic. This isn't just a quest that he invites his list to. This is making Strolen's Citadel THE community of Roleplayingtips. This site and forum will be the main go to place that he sends his 10k mailing list for forum discussions, quest stuff, ebook sales (idea is for us to put up a shopping cart for ebooks we do sell) and everything else that the RPT community does. Right now he works through email. The idea is to push it towards this community. So the last one we had a quest and got some traffic. This time everything will be pointed to the Citadel, continuously. All the ebooks that are made for free and for sale will be held here etc. So, this is entirely different than just hosting a joint idea thing, this is the Citadel becoming the center of the RPT community.

Damn, had another thought but lost it, running out of time.

We have to start somewhere. Again, Johnn is the one making this happen and we wouldn't be moving anywhere without him. Status quo. He will be doing all the work for us while we write and code and enjoy ourselves. I think we can find a place where we agree to move forward. We just have to discover it.

Just want to say one more time. Moving towards commercializing after so long being a free spirit is painful. It will NOT be perfect. Short term through the transition it will be a pain as we try and find equilibrium. These discussion will continue and there will be disagreement. I welcome that because as long as we are talking, we can figure it out. There is a lot of trust too because there will be no profit for quite awhile. The only way we can all get what we want is if it becomes somewhat successful.

Oh, 4 ebooks a month does not all come out of the Citadel. We may have a couple but Johnn has two other sites that generate ebooks that he will throw into the mix. And if 4 isn't sustainable (and he thinks it is at the moment) then we adjust. Brainstorming mode after all, just trying to find a starting point where we agree so we can start moving forward.

So, say 2 ebooks a month with a possible bonus. Not all Citadel content. But same price range then. We are trying to find the sweet spot of what a "average" subscriber would find beneficial.

Gotta run (not proofread so forgive me).

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#21

I'm not concerned about Johnn and you taking the money and running, I'm just concerned about getting a handful of beads for Manhattan Island. I've worked hard to reach the level I've reached in my writing. There is a large amount of time that has gone into reading and studying foundation material and much like what you've put into the citadel, I've put into my ability to write.

And you mention that writing is fun, and publishing is work. I'm going to have to disagree on that. I don't write because its fun. I write because I have to, because if I don't I can't sleep. Sometimes, it really really sucks because I know that some of the stuff that I write no one wants to read. Yes, I am being the temperamental artist here. I've been discussing this with some of my other like-minded non-gaming friends.

But Shadoweagle has it right, this is your ship, and you've not sailed it wrong yet.

And of course we are going to talk and debate through this, we are still first and foremost friends.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#22

Okey doke. So my 2 1/2 potential issues are as follows:

1) Pressure to perform. (1/2: Pressure to conform)

My sub posting style is extremely erratic: I might post 3-5 new subs in a week, and then not post a new sub for a couple months! I know i'm only a small drop in the pool of subs here, but I'm sure there are others who have a similar type of post style.

One of my favourite things about the site currently is that there is no feeling of the 'need' to make a sub. It's just something i'll do if I want to. Sometimes i'm hit with a burst of inspiration and i'll smash out a bunch of stuff! Then i'll run dry and stick to the forums for a while.

1/2) In the same vein as this is the 'pressure to conform'. Making a sub is something I do if I want to, and it's usually about what I want it to be. While i'm happy to be challenged with a particular theme, keyword or style from time to time, I worry that being given something specific to work on over and over (such as "This week is a 'Dungeons' Ebook! Lets make 15 Dungeons!" "Next week is "Swords! Lets make 15 swords!")...
Actually, in writing this down, I might take this 1/2 back - maybe it would be fun to be given challenges like that...

Anyway! The summary of my first potential worry is that I don't want to feel pressure; I don't want to feel like i'm not 'pulling my weight'. And I know that there isn't supposed to be a need to perform, but I think i'll still feel it regardless :p

2) What we give for what we get.

In the same vein as Scrasamax; I don't know if I want to give away the work i've created for 'awards' or 'store credits' and such. I don't even want a free copy of the e-book that my sub is in: I don't roleplay (outside of these forums, casually), and the e-books are not of much use to me. What I would MUCH rather and think would be much more appreciated is one of two things:
* A small percentage of the profits of the e-book sales that my sub is in OR
* A flat-rate cash payout for every sub of mine which is approved for use in an e-book. e.g. $3 base rate +$1 per page (Some of my subs are pretty long :p For example: Fields of Flesh is about 30 pages and worth a lot more to me in time and effort than The Jakthra).

Am I being greedy? I don't think so - they're our babies. We want to know that our work means something.

Tertiary thoughts:

Selfish as it sounds, I don't really want to have to pay for any kind of membership here. I like to think (perhaps delusionally) that my input to the site equalizes the output I receive from the site. You have created this site with your own coin, blood, sweat, tears and years, Strolen, and I can't commend you highly enough for what you have provided for all of us here, but the site grows with all of our input - the community. I worry that paying for added privileges will create a segregation in the community; the 'elitists' and the 'norms'.

This site being the 'go-to' community site would be great! The one thing we always need more of is more full-time, contributing members, and more activity in the forums. (Preferably with as little drama attached as possible, but some will be inevitable and will serve to spice the place up i'm sure :P ).

In spite of these issues/worries, I'm still all for it and am excited to see the changes it brings - these are just my personal reservations and I don't want my opinions to be in any way a hurdle for you advancing and improving the site in whichever way you see fit. Like I said: You are THE Strolen. You ARE the Citadel! You can do no wrong!

:respect:

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#23

So I'm seeing some mixed feelings about the thought that there might be some abilities on the site that are available for only paying subscribers. However, I don't think we've really clarified the nature of those features.

On the Scras/SE side of things, I can totally see that up until now, we've always been adding new capabilities and new features to the site that were completely 100% free and we all got to use them. Losing that would be slightly painful and off-putting (despite the fact that yes, we're getting it all for free anyway; losing anything, even free stuff, hurts).

Strolen (or Johnn), what sort of features would be hidden behind the paywall? Are we talking purely things that help with eBook consumption and other subscriber-based things, or are we talking other things that affect activity on the main portion of the Citadel? (For example, and I recognize that these specifically wouldn't happen, but being able to pay for a higher vote-cap, instead of working towards it through levels. Or being able to buy levels themselves. Etc. Etc.)

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#24

I believe Strolen mentioned earlier (in chat?) that the extra features would have things like a campaign manager (a la Obsidian Portal) rather than revolving around the core writing, posting, voting aspects of the site.

I will say that I too worry about creating a divide between members who pay for additional features and those who do not. Paying for the ebooks makes sense to me, because of the added work in making them look professional.

Strolen or Johnn, is there any talk about giving authors a percentage or flat rate? I agree with SE that that would be an equitable arrangement.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#25

Regarding subscription

This is a tough one. I personally think the subscription should be for the e-pubs alone. Then again I'm a cheap bastard :) Site features should be earned by the existing mechanism of levels. Anything else is changing how the site works, perhaps to its detriment.

What would I pay extra for? Very little, but then I'm a pretty austere person - instead of horses I have 3 kids :)
I would pay for a Cosmic Era sourcebook/novel :)

The subject of generating revenue from a webpage is the whole obsession of the internet. Those golden pageviews, driven largely by ads. Ads, Paywalls, Services/products. We don't want Ads, nor Paywalls. So, that leaves services and perhaps swag. Maybe we do something like PBS does with their yearly fund-raising telethon, with strolen dice, printed hardcover e-pubs, tee-shirts, etc available similar to kickstarter campaigns.

Maybe we just put ads on the Torture techniques sub. That gets lots of hits and those who like torture subs probably enjoy ads too :P

Regarding creative control, I believe this must remain with the authors, and in the case of commercial publication, no assumption that since material has been posted here it is available for commercial use without negotiation should be made. One can make use of the Rights Chooser to mark submissions explicitly .

eg: http://strolen.com/viewing/7234

I have set this to non-commercial
Attribution — You must give the original author credit.
Non-Commercial — You may not use this work for commercial purposes.
No Derivative Works — You may not alter, transform, or build upon this work.

Perhaps tedious to roll out to 1000's of subs, but the option is there. An email/ post declaring that all of your works, or a subset should work as well.

Of course this makes sourcing submissions more work since you need to deal with the authors, but that's life.

Regarding Pressure to perform

Why would this change? The only one to feel this need likely is Strolen. If we get to the point where there is not enough accessible content to feed the e-pub machine then perhaps he would have an issue.

Any pressure to perform should be self inflicted.

What we give for what we get

I have to be frank. What do you have now? Are you going to be publishing this stuff? When? If you are, mark your subs as non-commercial,non-derivable, or even 'all rights reserved' and move on.
Financial terms for submissions has been discussed previously and my understanding is that these are very much still up for debate.

As long as these terms are agreed to, rather than unilaterally imposed, I don't see a problem.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#26

Mystic: Yes, there was definitely talk about treating submitter content as freelance work and paying on a per-word basis. So that's absolutely been put on the table as an option. It's not a mystical far-off land that nobody wants to venture to, it's already one of the considerations being contemplated.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#27

Hola!

I've been busier than a one-armed orc with crabs with a few projects of late, but have been lurking intently.

I just wanted to pop in and share a couple thoughts about my vision for this.

I was thinking of it more as a membership. With membership comes a bunch of perks or features or services.

The initial idea for membership benefits was ebooks, because my background is all writing, publishing and ebooking. And Mike had chatted with me earlier this year about ebooks and an InDesign template he was having commissioned.

And like my tips site, I know the content gets diffuse and harder to find over time. So, I was talking with Mike about doing compilations of content that included Strolen's great work and Roleplaying Tips archives content.

And with Mike being a code monkey guru, I was thinking the future might hold things like generators (like this one http://citygenerator.morgajel.net/#), Obsidian Portal type campaign management functions, and other cool things I've seen computers do.

I also love group brainstorming, contests and community events. Those things are fun, though they take a ton of time to manage and collate content, etc.

I'm definitely open to profit sharing or paying freelance.

For freelance, I prefer to pay flat rates per deliverable rather than word counts, though. When I'm the editor, it's my job to cut, cut, cut to create clarity, simplicity and readability. So anytime I've hired writers I've always agreed on a flat rate up front with them so both sides can focus on the best quality final piece of work rather than the tension between editing down content and writing up content. :)

I see Strolen's and Roleplaying Tips staying the same as they are today, with all the free features and services continuing to operate.

And I love the idea of optin for commercial rights. For example, say I create an NPC for a Quest. I'd want to work on it for a bit, get feedback, and improve it through a few edits before I'd want to see him in an ebook. So, personally, I'd like to optin for commercial use only when ready. and interested

I see collated content in formats like ebooks a valuable professional service to the gaming community. You can find my tips free at my site, for example. But having them professionally edited, bundled, with a nice layout and cool cover, grouped into a particular theme, adds a lot of value to customers. They get pro, polished content all gathered up, saving them time and giving them a quality experience. I often prefer to open a guidebook over doing a google search for my campaigns.

So I'd love to hear ideas, suggestions and requests for new stuff that might go into a members-only area, assuming that the free content and services available on Strolen's and Roleplaying Tips stay so ongoing. What cool new stuff would be worth a membership?

Johnn

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#28

So we hit a sort of impasse so I will throw out a couple things. I had a small revelation that may bring some of the ideas into a better perspective.

Let me start with this. It was at the end but needs to be here: Everyone reading this can assume that anything I ever build on the site will be available for you for free. So let's drop that fear. For those creators and people that spend time on the site to gain the levels you do, I will say you have definitely earned the right to anything I could ever come up with in code. It would be well deserved and I will definitely continue to need beta testers. You are the core Strolenati. You are not the target audience for all this, you are the builders of the new era and will continue to be part of it! You already earned it.

1) I am going to move forward with Strolen.com 5.0. Nothing changes as far as that is concerned. I will continue to move it towards the new design backend and push forward doing some rather drastic experimenting with how we view content as well as playing with new ideas.

Which sort of brings me to the second point.

2) We are discussing this like we are the target audience for the subscription and sale of the content. I am sure you probably noticed, you are the authors of said content and only partially consumers. You are only consumers in the vein of friendship and a shared hobby. But most, if not all of you, are creative authors having fun and doing what you love (or what you are driven to do). You ARE THE SITE. Bottom line.

Those that actually benefit from YOUR content is the BH. They come and go, take the content and use it without us EVER knowing they did it. We get a solid 5k+ UNIQUE visitors a month, over 10k individual visits monthly. If you see those numbers, there are 5k visits from returnees. We got 122K visitors over the last year (70k unique users) with almost 500k pageviews. (Yesterday, in 24hrs, we had 175 unique people visit looking at 6 pages each for an average of 15 minutes)

How many authors do we have actively engaged with the site? We get maybe 30+ registered users logged in on a healthy day?

Look at the intro threads. The main theme of many of them is "I have been lurking this site for YEARS and finally decided to register."

Right now there is absolutely no reason for any non-Strolenati to register, comment or vote. None. No incentive whatsoever. Everything is free for the taking without a second thought. The stats bear this out. They visit all the time...but who are they?

I am not complaining. It is what we made and it was on purpose and I love it.

So, if you allow me to point it out, the changes to the site, the subscription, the offer of ebooks....when it comes down to it. IT IS NOT FOR YOU.

What we would like to do is start to capture a tiny part of those 500k visits and push them towards your content in a focused way to benefit us all. Give them incentives to stop for a minute and register. Give them some benefits to being a Strolenati beyond what is available. Give them some nice content in a nice format because THEY use it. We may not use it ourselves, but some of those 70k+ users that visit us yearly may love to have a horror ebook, or a pieces of a SF setting or subscribe to 2-4 ebooks a month. (not to mention the 10K+ targeted users of Johnn's RPT mailing list that he will push this way)

So lets mind wipe what WE want for a moment and see if we can come up with what THEY would want for a little bit. If we can give them what THEY want, then all the other pieces that we are thinking for ourselves can start falling into place.

It comes down to this question then, if you were a role player looking for content, what would you expect for, say, $10 a month? $5? What would get a BH to stop and either register and/or subscribe to the site?

And assume your average roleplayer can afford $5-$10 a month so we don't enter the can't afford it debate again.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#29

I think the most important thing would be to offer multiple payment methods, not just paypal and the major credit cards, but alternative means as well. Take a look at Steam and what they offer. If I was a BH that would be the first thing I would check. Oh and actually not having to register when all I want to do is make a purchase, funnily enough. :P

Edit: Actually, reading it again, I think I misunderstood the question. I was thinking more in terms of one time purchases, I would never pay a subscription fee for anything, save maybe....immortality, that would be worth a monthly fee, but other than that, I'm probably the wrong person to talk about what would make it worthwhile. :Thud:

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#30

Set this comment up for me being frankly to lazy to read every single argumentative comment. I have been listed in one of RPTs' weekly publications, so I know a little bit about what he does. After reading sporadic comments I honestly feel really reluctant to pursue anything further. I have been here a VERY long time, so long I have honestly forgotten how long to be exact. The Citadel has helped me flesh out a lot of my own world of Hewdamia and partially where to thread its tales and what direction to go in.

However, I really am not comfortable with paying a monthly fee for little to nothing really usable in return. I already have access to what is on the Citadel and RPT, and if new content is to be hidden to anything but subscribers than I really don't wish to be a part of that. The issue with new "blood" to the Citadel that is not serious as we have seen in the past is one of 3 things.

1) They plagiarize horribly form material that has been published before. The worst coming to mind was that poster who copy and pasted many items from Warhammer 40K material and swore up and down they were his and only his until Silver produced the evidence.

2) They are less than worthless. I need not expand on this thought as we all know the horrible, grammatically, and unreadable subs posted up.

3) Only about 2% of new blood stays and is productive. Goss being the last one that comes to mind that fits this category.

I am very sporadic in my submissions here I realize that. My hay day has seen its sunset perhaps. I do not post five a day like I used to. I'm lucky to post one in five months. But again, if I have to begin paying for a subscription as inactive as I am at times than I will probably simply remove my work here so it can not be used without my permission or for some new blood to read it, take it, alter it, and say it is their own. If you want to discuss this more at length or I have missed something by only skimming through the comments than anyone is more than welcome to PM or email me.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#31

Mourn - Strolen's most recent post should waylay some of your fears: we, the Strolenati are not the target for this paid subscription and will never have go pay.

now
... My thoughts!

Ah ha! What does the barbarian horde want!?

Assuming they are gms or avid players looking for inspiration or content for their game, i think what would be worth money to them is some creative control.

Why not have one of the ebooks every month be a 'Quest -E-book' and give the paying member exclusive rights to vote (from a limited list) on the theme of the quest.
So if they are running a campaign that's going in an elven part of their world, for example, they can go, "aah, id really love some more elven content... I'll vote on the 'elven artifacts' option this month!"
They wont always get what they want but they will feel like they have some sway over it at least.

Another thing i think would be cool that wont make contributing members feel too left out, is that paying memberships get a special 'rank' in Strolen's Citadel, equivalent to level 10(?). They get all perks and votes and such that come with that level.

So basically the Citadel's levelling system is a "pay-or-earn" system. Jf you don't pay you can still achieve the same levels, it just requires commitment and contribution.
(an offshoot of this idea is that every month they stay they gain a level, up to level 10 cap)

The kicker to this however, is that to advance further than lvl 10 they still need to make the equivalent amount of Sub posts; and every level after that has the same xp and sub count requirement. That way, beyond level 10 is still a rewarding challenge open to members and non-members alike.

So this way paying members feel like theyve been given some exclusivity, but Scrasamax's Master level is still something that represents a crapload of work and is still something to be in awe of :p

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#32

Great ideas Shadoweagle!

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#33

(an offshoot of this idea is that every month they stay they gain a level, up to level 10 cap)

The kicker to this however, is that to advance further than lvl 10 they still need to make the equivalent amount of Sub posts; and every level after that has the same xp and sub count requirement. That way, beyond level 10 is still a rewarding challenge open to members and non-members alike.

So what you saying is after 10 months worth of hanging around and doing nothing is the same effort I put in for the last decade I've been here? Anything beyond that is really nothing... I have enough sub work to be level 15 I think I just lack the points from comments to make it... I find that not really rewarding after that point and feel cheated for all of my hard work, as Scars has... I'm not really keen on this but it isn't my site and I'm only one person.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#34

You're not alone, Mourn. I am very much against paying for level privileges. I feel very strongly that that should always be earned.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#35

So what else can we do to add value to a membership and to encourage new folks to become active and valuable members?

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#36

Well, perhaps level 5 or something then. I think the people that are actually part of the community should have a higher standing than those who just pay, but if people want to boost themselves a little bit by paying for a membership, let them: the profit all goes back into the site anyway. They are contributing like us; with money instead of content.

first and foremost Mourn I will say i respect your opinions and you as a person; you (and many other regulars) have had a major, positive influence on this site, and i think your worries are legitimate.

I think some of your worries have been addressed. I'll try and go through them:

there is no new content that will be hidden to non-subscribers; that is partially the reason foe this discussion: to find ways to reward paying people without exclusivity and segregation.

the increased amount of new people will definitely bring horrible people in. However, it will bring good peoplebin as well. As long as we nurture the good, and don't get hung up on the negative people, it can only be a good thing for the citadel.

the target audience for the subscribers are the barbarian horde which ALREADY take, modify and use your content (strolen was saying 10000 unique visitors a month). All he wants to do is try and capitalize on a few of those faceless people. Again i will say: You have proven yourself already and will not ever have to pay for what you have here.

you can change the license on your subs ao they may not be used for commercial things if you like, meaning if you don't want rpt to put it on a book, it is absolutely your right to do so.

if you choose to do it, Johnn said he is willing to pay cash money for your content, meaning you will get actual profit out of it (either % of sales or straight payout per sub. Its up for discussion) again, its up to you and you don't have to give your subs out if you don't want.

finally, as Strolen said; he intends nothing to change on this site. Every part of this site will remain free and community-first. You will not be denies anything if you don't pay for a subscription.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#37

So what else can we do to add value to a membership and to encourage new folks to become active and valuable members?

For me the ebooks are enough. Anything more seems likely to split the community or drive it in a direction that feels uncomfortable. Folks should join because they have something to say and they want to participate in the community.

Strolen's post really put things in perspective for me. What we're looking at is the difference between producers and consumers. If a percentage of all those silent visitors see value in buying professionally produced ebooks and that money can go back into the site and into the pockets of the creators, then that's wonderful. But does that instantly turn them into people who want to participate in the discussion? I'm not so sure.

I would love to get more feedback on my work. I would love to know if it's being used, and if so how well it worked. I'm sure others here feel the same. If there's a way to get some of the BH to engage and provide more of that, that would be great. But I'm not really holding my breath.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#38

Membership should save gamers time. All services as competing for eyeballs. Netflix at $96.00 a year is competiton. So, when you look at that, you need to bring your A game.

So, some ideas, without me filtering them for plausability:

1. Discounts on other sources - RPG products.
2. Campaign in the cloud. Lets gamers store their stuff in private/public submissions. Allow file uploads, lots of options for customizing their pages. Perhaps even a versioning system for character sheets.
3. Access to stock maps.
4. Generators Generators Generators
5. Chat clients enhanced with additional rpg tools
6. Editorialized treatment of existing and new submissions. Reviews of such.
7. Gamers news.
8. Personal strolen sites.
9. Strolen.com email
10. Discounts on strolen author's own ebooks - with authors getting exposure on site.

Apologize for duplicates of others ideas.

Of course all of this is work and time. You need to have assets to sell.

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#39

2, 4 and 9 resonate really well with me, Val; give them a place to virtually store their game in a secure location, with backup capabilities. The backup thing alone would be worth spending money; nothing worse than losing your content!
I like the cut of your jib!

Re: Strolen.com and RolePlayingTips.com join forces to rule the world

#40

Awesome ideas!

I have always wanted generators whose results I could save permanently into an account for later reference.

I've also always wanted generators that work like those multi-panel picture books:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7XPC7uEaNxw/TkNTbp5aKnI/AAAAAAAADi4/ONqdc1csPV4/s320/Pages.jpg