Not sure what to make of this

#1

Out of curiosity I did an activity and IP check of Di using the forum admin interface options which turned up the following results:

Most recent IP address: 94.8.193.233 IPs used in recent posts:176.26.141.116, 94.8.193.233 IPs used in error messages:Members possibly in the same range:chilled, Kassy

94.8.193.233 Dionysus Re: Submission (Awaiting Approval) Today at 01:43:02 PM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: Throne of Games Today at 10:48:22 AM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: Quest Voting: 20,000 Feet Under the Sea Today at 07:20:33 AM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: Throne of Games Today at 07:12:03 AM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: Throne of Games Today at 06:36:35 AM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: OOC Today at 06:33:44 AM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: Returning Novice Today at 06:32:30 AM
94.8.193.233 chilled Submission Vanished Today at 06:07:37 AM
94.8.193.233 Dionysus Re: Submission (Awaiting Approval) Yesterday at 08:36:38 PM
94.8.193.233 Dionysus Submission (Awaiting Approval) Yesterday at 04:01:49 PM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: Throne of Games Yesterday at 08:30:57 AM
94.8.193.233 chilled Returning Novice Yesterday at 07:13:11 AM
94.8.193.233 Dionysus Re: Throne of Games June 02, 2012, 02:54:16 PM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: How Disturbed is Everyone? June 02, 2012, 02:04:58 AM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: Throne of Games June 02, 2012, 01:56:35 AM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: Throne of Games June 01, 2012, 10:19:05 AM
94.8.193.233 Dionysus Re: Alleged Plagiarism. May 31, 2012, 02:14:47 PM
94.8.193.233 Dionysus Re: Alleged Plagiarism. May 31, 2012, 11:16:21 AM
94.8.193.233 Dionysus Alleged Plagiarism. May 31, 2012, 09:15:04 AM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: The Day the Citadel Stood Still May 31, 2012, 08:09:12 AM
94.8.193.233 Dionysus Re: Rumor Control: Challenged subs consumed by grue May 31, 2012, 06:12:39 AM
94.8.193.233 Dionysus Writing Practices. May 29, 2012, 11:51:53 AM
94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: OOC May 29, 2012, 06:55:42 AM

By the looks of this it would appear Di, Kassy, and Chilled, are the same individual? :what:

Or the software is bugged up/I'm reading it wrong?

Just thought I toss this here for those more savvy in such things to review and look into.

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#2

Well chilled seems to be the same person who was current and active back in 08, at least from following the comment path back to their personal page and viewing his material. As for Kassy and Di, I have no idea. It could be coincidence if they are close together.

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#3

Aye, I'm good friends with Kassy and she's posted several of her own subs, so barring some kind of serious mental disorder/illness I can't fathom any reason why she'd create a new account/s for the purpose of plagiarizing other peoples work and causing trouble.

I spoke with Val briefly about this in chat, and we thought of the possibility Di and Kassy were both connecting to the same wireless network in the UK (Kassy uses an I-pad to connect and live in Hartlepool and Di in Bristol according to their profiles) so it could be a coincidence from that as well or some kind of database error.

On the flip side some of the log in times are a bit close together for such coincidence such as:

94.8.193.233 Kassy Re: Returning Novice Today at 06:32:30 AM
94.8.193.233 chilled Submission Vanished Today at 06:07:37 AM

And there's also the error log:

94.8.193.233 Guest Password incorrect - Dionysus
?action=login2 Yesterday at 03:58:52 PM
94.8.193.233 Guest Password incorrect - Kassy
?action=login2 June 01, 2012, 02:43:59 AM

*shrugs* Either way, it's impossible to tell what's going on without looking into it more.

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#4

Update:

Today I spoke with Kassy in chat, and checked her IP, then she logged out about 2 minutes before DI logged in, and Di had the same IP as Kassy (See attached pic for clarification.)

To me that says Di and Kassy (and likely Chilled) are one and the same given Kassy claims to live alone and connect through an I-pad)

Given the recent issue with Di plagiarizing subs, (and I noticed Kassy up voting Chilled's stuff) I just feel an official inquiry should be made by someone (Strolen I figure?) and find out what she/he has to say on the matter, and close out two of the duplicate accounts to keep things honest XP/vote wise and put a stop to this multiple account game before things get out of hand down the road; and she/he keeps pumping his/her stuff vote wise with the alternate two accounts.

[img width=400 height=339]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Freya_Crescent_x/proof.jpg

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#5

Well, my first questions is, "So what?"

I know that probably isn't what you expected but is it really hurting anything?

I don't like the idea that you have already prejudged and thinking about banning accounts. How would this get of out of control later? I just don't see any of that.

There was one time, if I am not mistaken, that there were roommates or brothers or something, one more mature and older than the other, who shared the same computer. Anybody remember that one to tell me the final, if anything, that came with that? That was one of two others I recall.

This is another where, without accusing and to appease your curiosity, why not just NICELY ask while in chat in a surprised piece of text, "Hey, this is weird, your IP is the same as chilled. Do you know each other?" and see what comes of it. Ask them all and try and get them to meet each other or something and see how they react. Like we discussed, college campuses, libraries, school schedules where one has study hall right after another or something, same provider, brothers....Not too crazy for friends to tell each other about a site they like to hang out at. Or maybe he reverted back to original account after Di backfired and then got stuck in using both accounts for a bit and a gentle nudge will gently fix the situation. Could be a TON of reasons.

Nothing has to be so formal as an accusation. Previously, if we would have just asked Di, "Hey, these subs look exactly like the others, are you the author?" and then went from there you change the entire dynamic of the conversation into a curiosity question vs an in your face accusation that puts them on the defensive.

Take it easy, be nice, we are in no hurry and it is NOT a big deal unless we make it a big deal. Sure, appease your curiosity and politely ask in a rational way. Sometimes a simple question asked will silently make one of the accounts disappear without alienating the user completely OR there might be a rational answer to it all.

Be prepared to accept the answer though and not spin it. If they have an answer, and it is rational, accept it and move on...don't push it.

If they each say "I don't know them, that is crazy how we might have the same IP. Not sure why that is." Then ask where they are and agree it is weird and move on.

The question alone might be enough to drive some change if they actually are the same person or you will figure out the answer after you talk to them both.

Either way, we know nothing till we ask.

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#6

To be clear I was asking for an official inquiry and "to see what he/she has to say about the matter," and I was certainly not passing judgement, my suggestion of closing two of the three accounts would of course only apply if they were indeed one and the same person as opposed to roomies/friends/children, etc...

As for the harm of a single person having more then one account, I feel using multiple accounts to manipulate the rating of ones own subs, (or up/down vote the subs of others) would constitute as harm in my view.

Essentially it is letting one person have 3 accounts to play with gives them 3 times the influence of everyone else at the citadel, which is obviously unfair and dishonest to the membership as a whole.

I recall back when Rosie briefly joined the citadel, (she left for reason I'll not get into here) I was up front with it, and we agreed not to vote on each others subs to preserve the fairness of how things are done; I guess I just sort of expected the same up front behavior from others who have loved ones/housemates join our community.

While Kassy may indeed have brothers/sisters/cousins/roommates/ whatever, she openly claims to live alone, hence the reason why I inquired so much into the possibility of multiple accounts, since it comes across to me as potential deception of some sort or another and curiosity compels me to seek the truth.

Take it easy, be nice, we are in no hurry and it is NOT a big deal unless we make it a big deal. Sure, appease your curiosity and politely ask in a rational way. Sometimes a simple question asked will silently make one of the accounts disappear without alienating the user completely OR there might be a rational answer to it all.

Be prepared to accept the answer though and not spin it. If they have an answer, and it is rational, accept it and move on...don't push it.

Kassy is something of a good friend of mine, (as far as I know anyway) and I will follow your advice and proceed forth with a subtle (non accusatory) inquiry with Kassy about the IP similarity and see what her response is, and respond here with my findings.

Given I seem to be standing alone on this in my curiosity/concern on this matter, I feel it is best of I continue to satisfy my curiosity and go forth on my own to seek further information.

I sense an underlying tone of... Doubt/concern from you Strolen in how I will handle this, so I give you my word I will take the gentlest path possible in handling this matter, and will do everything I can to keep it private and away from the eyes of the citadel members as a whole.

I'll be the first to admit, by your view Strolen, my handling of Di was in error, and I will not, (knowingly) make such a mistake again and handle all admin matters as discreetly as possible, in order to maintain the level of discretion you prefer us admins handle matters at the citadel. :up:

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#7

Well, my first questions is, "So what?"

I lol, because that was my first thought as well in chat last week when told of this. Actually i think I typed my first thought as "Who Cares?" :)

Happy Hunting, Sil :up:

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#8

Happy Hunting, Sil :up:

Thanks Muro, the hunt proved.... Enlightening, and much shorter then expected.

Given I seem to be the only one burning a candle for this I'll spare you the detailed results of my hunt, (and to uphold a promise of privacy I made.) Let's just say this a matter best not poked at any further, and turned a blind eye to if possible, for the good of all. :up:

Thus I conclude my official (and unofficial) inquiry into the matter, and for the record, have ruffled no feathers, nor caused discord, at any point during my investigation.

(An I'll thank ye in advance to spare me the inquisitor jokes :P )

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#9

Well, I've been pinged with having more than one account, which I do.

I have my admin account, I have a 'peasant' account where I can see the Citadel as the usual members do (and post stuff for my own reasons) and my wife has an account. So that's three technically for me, but then for some bizarre reason (something to do with the phase couplings in the matter antimatter stream) a fourth account, Fearghus, popped up pinging back the same address as me.

Still don't know about that one.

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#10

Just a side note for future reference to those it may concern, and to save people wasting their time answering questions to which the asker already knows the answer, EmilioV is another alt account of Kassy's where she/he is pretending to be someone different and "new to the citadel" yet again.... :dunno:

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#11

Did it this way as a private PM to Kassy....Thanks Moon and Silveressa!!

I changed the below post Kingdom Coin to requires edit. If you can't view it, here is Moon's wonderfully phrased comment on it. See how it is subtle and non-inflammatory, yet cuts directly to the issue? I would have probably gone PM first myself, but if you are going to do it publicly, that is the way to do it.

I found the original not only to be more interesting, but better formatted.http://hobbyjapan.co.jp/wh/dlfiles/owa_coin_color.pdf

Warhammer Piece for those that care.

--------

http://strolen.com/viewing/6896

Check out Moon's comment and let me know.

Any other posts by "EmilioV" that we should check on?

By the way, you aren't helping much by the extra accounts, while we can't confirm these ( and don't care enough to do it anyway ) the thought of it does annoy a few members.

Members possibly in the same range: Kassy, chilled, Vampiric Crusader, Dionysus, EmilioVasquez, EmilioV

Just a poke to start the dialog.

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#12

I think reddit may be a better site for this type of activity....

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#13

I am done "investigating" Kassy. She denied it, very nicely, and that is good enough for me. Don't plan on chasing my tale. Next step, confronting EmilioV or whatever the name is and see the delio.

Only line I am willing to quote from Kassy's PM response:

Regardless, I only have the one account; Kassy.

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#14

Just a side note as far as her "denial" goes, in the "Error messages from IP" section one will notice multiple log password errors where the user tried to log in as both Kassy/Emillio etc.. and entered the wrong passwords over the time periods.

Were it truly separate individuals, then it's highly unlikely they would be "accidentally" trying to log onto each others accounts. :wink:

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#15

I, for one, won't be calling anybody a liar without definitive proof, and that is pretty much the bottom line.

If she can, to our face, say what she did, then that is all I can do at that point and I will be happy to take it at face value. If some kind of obvious proof comes back later, than she abused our trust and that is a whole other level that I won't have much sympathy for. But I am done with looking at Kassy for anything and I will treat her just like anybody else.

EmilioV, on the other hand, is still an issue to deal with regardless of the other situation that is revolving around it or who is typing that user's words. I sent "it" a PM yesterday.

We have found that once things are brought to the forefront with undeniable facts, then there is not much recourse from the person we are talking to. Not like they can deny the plagiarism. The drama really spins out of control when we make unproven accusations/assumptions and then stick by them.

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#16

My guess is now we've confronted them about the issue, we won't be seeing any more of EmillioV for a long while, especially if Emillio follows the pattern of the Dionysus account after it became known she/he was plagiarizing work as well.

A suggestion for now, given we only have proof some of their subs are plagiarized works, would be to move any of the works already known for being copies into the "in work private" area of the account, (or delete them entirely) and then ask for volunteers from the citadel community to investigate the rest of the subs to determine if they are indeed originals, or also copies of other published work.

Given when Dionysus first played at this game, all of his subs (at the time) were copies of other authors efforts, the same likely holds true for Emillio, and the proof will perhaps become apparent as people look further into the matter. (So far the subs of Emillo's proven to be plagiarized works have all come from Warhammer Fantasy books, so that seems like the best place to begin such an inquisition.)

Personally, I'd just nuke the entire Emillio account due to the author plagiarizing published material and call it a wrap, (It's a lot more lenient and gentle then the law suits and fines/jail time they'd face in the offline world for pulling such antics with published works by a well known gaming company.) rather then spend loads personal time digging at the remaining subs for proof they were plagiarized, but that's just me, I'm sure others with the free time/inclination to go on such a hunt may feel differently. ;)

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#17

Speaking from a purely legalistic stand point, this user making up multiple accounts and posting plagiarized material on the site is putting the Citadel itself in very real risk of being on the wrong end of a law suit. (Especially when we have no rules posted anywhere saying posting plagiarized/pirated material is against our TOS. Um, do we even have a EULA/TOS for this site? :what: )

If Fantasy Flight Games, or another company this person (or a different user) steals material from, ever becomes aware of their material being plagiarized and hosted on the Citadel and decide to take legal action, the ultimate outcome could result in our online home being shut down. (Or at the very least a costly legal battle to avoid such a fate.)

No it's not fear mongering, it's fact; many big name companies with high paid lawyers take a dim view of their content being freely redistributed and sometimes make an example out of sites/people that facilitate/condone such actions.

The Citadel is my home, and I care deeply about it continued prosperity, and feel compelled to point out this users actions have the potential to impact more then just their online reputation/well being.

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#18

Speaking from a purely legalistic stand point, this user making up multiple accounts and posting plagiarized material on the site is putting the Citadel itself in very real risk of being on the wrong end of a law suit. (Especially when we have no rules posted anywhere saying posting plagiarized/pirated material is against our TOS. Um, do we even have a EULA/TOS for this site? :what: )

If Fantasy Flight Games, or another company this person (or a different user) steals material from, ever becomes aware of their material being plagiarized and hosted on the Citadel and decide to take legal action, the ultimate outcome could result in our online home being shut down. (Or at the very least a costly legal battle to avoid such a fate.)

No it's not fear mongering, it's fact; many big name companies with high paid lawyers take a dim view of their content being freely redistributed and sometimes make an example out of sites/people that facilitate/condone such actions.

The Citadel is my home, and I care deeply about it continued prosperity, and feel compelled to point out this users actions have the potential to impact more then just their online reputation/well being.

Shall I call the firing squad, or should I warm up the electric chair?

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#19

I'd go for the old fashioned ax personally, as in axing the offending accounts starting with the head. :twisted:

Seriously though, this is the account holders second offense, until something gets done to address the root of the problem (the account holder) the individual is unlikely to stop. (Persisting in posting plagiarized works after being caught the first time on the Dionysus account speaks rather clearly of someone without an over abundance of intellect or morals.)

On a more practical note, perhaps having some sort of official TOS drawn up for the Citadel would help shield us from any potential legal problems in the future that may be caused by similar such incidents? Virtually every legitimate site out there has some sort of TOS to the effect of "no posting copyrighted material on this site" (along with the other junk about no porn, no links to porn/pirated material etc..) to protect them from lawsuits by third parties and make it clear to visitors/members the site is not a place to commit such activities.

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#20

For the record, not worried about legal action *at all* so scrap that from your worry chart.

I get bored too easily with TOS and all that crap so if you want to come up with one, go for it. I don't promise I will use it though. I am even annoyed with the forum disclaimer prior to signing up. I think I removed it at some point and not sure if I put it back or not. No, I don't care either way, I don't need to know.

Common sense dictates that plagiarism is frowned upon. I don't like being redundant so writing something about it would annoy me.

I have PM'd the person. We have solid proof of a single instance of plagiarism, unless we found more. Yes, odds are that others do come from Warhammer but without a link, it is a assumption so I am not removing them or saying anything public about them. I am a more user centric person as I have fully established, I want to hear their stories before I act. I don't ban people as a rule (with the notable exception of the obvious forum spammers). I am waiting for a response to the PM. Until then, I don't care. I don't get spun up. I am not worried. I have time. I am in no rush. Citadel moves on as usual without anybody else knowing or caring.

I will be truthful. I am getting a little tired of the sky is falling. It annoys me. It annoys me greatly. There is NOTHING that will happen on this site that matters enough to stress out about. Yes, concern or annoyance, fine. But if this takes 2 months to figure out...I don't care. I am not going to press any harder on anything because, in the scheme of things, it isn't a huge deal at all.

Here is me being annoyed because I have to be redundant. We have been admining this board for over 10 years in a stressfree somewhat carefree way. I am NOT going to change that. I like it. I don't like having to worry that my admins are going to do something more disruptive to the sites then the problems they are trying to fix. I never had that worry till now. Go back through all the admin threads, there is very little drama (although when there is, there *is* but that is going to happen very occasionally no matter what) The things that are happening now, to me, are not cause for any worry nor all the effort that is being put into them. It goes with running the site.

I am ecstatic that people found the plagiarism of course!!! I won't stand for it. But we don't need instant action on it either. We never have. Because it isn't a big deal, it comes with the type site this is. We handle it as we find it by confronting the "author" and then see what they say. I won't act on only one side of a story, even if it is painfully obvious. If they disappear and never reply, after a month or so we can take down the ones we "think" are plagiarism just in case. Then let it drift into obscurity. I have no intention of deleting the account.

Multiple usernames. Don't care really. Again, a thing that is going to happen. Can't catch them all. If we do, we ask. If they deny, I move on. If it becomes an issue, and not an assumed issue or a couple votes here and there but a categorical real issue like 1 voting on other people subs and 5 voting on themselves, that is an issue that we have dealt with in the past. They normally don't last, it takes a lot of effort. Those that do last are probably psycho and need the outlet for the dual personalities. So be it, let them have their release. Psycho is fine if they aren't disruptive. That is why ONLY admins have access to the IPs. Nobody else knows or cares. So unless we make it a big deal, it isn't.

I am getting this all out because I will be offline till Monday. Till then, I don't care. Leave the sleeping lions alone. Please don't make drama where there is none. It wears us out.

Goosfrabba!

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#21

*Shrugs* At this point I'm tired of playing citadel Marshal and keeping an eye out for plagiarizing twits and getting involved in stuff, and the thunderous echoes of indifference are all but deafening, so I'm not going to worry about it anymore.

In the words of Bilbo Baggins:

"I need a holiday. A very long holiday. And I don't expect I shall return. In fact I mean not to."

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#22

Thank you.

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#23

It's a lot more lenient and gentle then the law suits and fines/jail time they'd face in the offline world for pulling such antics with published works by a well known gaming company.

lol, i immediately visualize this:

"What are you in here for?"

"I killed my parents with an axe, then my neighbors, and raped my cat for good measure. What about you?"

"Umm, well, I'm a baaad man. You see, there was this cool entry on the Warhammer site, and I--umm, copied it word for word basically, and posted it on this other website, and then apparently someone noticed that I was plagiarizing, and well, uhh---i thought I was being slick, but....hey, look at that new guy! Lets go make him our b****!"

Re: Not sure what to make of this

#24

me, I crossed Games Workshop, copied some of their stuff. I got off easy, double life sentence, their prosecutor wanted a double death penalty and triple XP if the executioner got a critical.