The Future of This Site

#1

Since this theme has been rolling around PMs, shout outs, Mourngrymn's updated "Submission Respect" contribution and no doubt other venues as well, it seemed to me that a topic discussing things might prove fruitful.

For my part, I don't pretend to be a veteran Strolenati. I've been a member for not quite two years, and my contributions have come in a handful of bursts. Mostly what I've done is happily mine other people's contributions for ideas for my own game, especially in filling the endless maw of shops, landmarks and NPCs that is my overgiant game world. Talk about the Good Old Days - an endemic trope that pretty much means "When I first discovered the thing" in any possible venue, activity or milieu - would of course be lost on me.

That being said, a few disjointed thoughts, stemming from something of an all-nighter and best written as a string of posts:

It should come as no surprise to folks that people post subs for different reasons. Some to seek give and take; some to go after XP, levels and status; some to get pure egoboo; some for help to get past a roadblock or a blind spot; some as a literary exercise; some for some or all of the above. For me, it's giving back ... I've a powerful ethic which mandates that if you grab goodies from somewhere, you should provide goodies of your own so others aren't left holding the bag. This was, I always felt, something of a potluck site, where you took what you needed to keep you fed, but it was incumbent on you to give back when and as you could.

In that respect, I'm not particularly seeking critique. I've been doing expository writing for a long time, and a lot of people have paid me to do it ... among them Steve Jackson Games, Iron Crown, Gamelords and Mayfair Games, for whom I've got about 15 publication credits between them. In a number of my subs there are probably more things that could be said - a town of a couple thousand people reasonably would have not so much twenty locations and businesses as two hundred - but realistically, were I to write a sub that large and complete, I’d take it to the various game companies with an eye towards some cash, rather than post it here. That being said, what I write conforms to my prejudices - on length, on style, on degree of fluff text, on challenge, on twists ... and given the system-free environment of the site, we’re constrained as to detail.

No doubt there are others who are likewise not generally seeking critique or feel that their pieces need to “improve.”

The critique I will accept is limited, and it pretty much boils down to answering this: without drowning the GM or players in more verbiage than they’re likely to want, what needs to be added to get them the information they need? What tricks did I miss in attempting to fulfill my intent? Am I leaving something obvious out?

By contrast, taking potshots for not writing to suit your own stylistic prejudices isn’t terribly welcome, and I’m grimly bemused when someone who is being rude and offensive is shocked, shocked! when the target acts as if he has been offended.

Some Modest Proposals, redacted from a PM I sent yesterday.

#2

IMHO, I'd ditch the voting and level structure altogether. Quite aside from that it's completely subjective and varies per every voter, it fosters competition more than ideas, and in many cases, isn't at all helpful ... never mind encouraging tactical voting to sabotage the other guy's highflying sub. Keep HoH for the very best subs ... although my own thought is that you could rewrite things to give each user not only so many HoH votes but to require 2-3 people to agree on the status.

You might also not get so much flowery prose - I'm not innocent of this myself - that I wonder serves more to plump up a piece to the Hey! Aren't I A Pretty Sub? level than provides useful info to GMs. God knows when I was writing for SJ Games, I would have had my head torn off for loading a manuscript up with such fluff at the direct expense of useful info, a particular bugaboo of theirs. It's seemed to me, in some cases, that the writer forgot he or she was doing a piece suitable for use in a tabletop gaming session, and more writing a private piece of fiction for his or her own amusement.

Then again, I'm down myself on detailed ancient history in such things, on the grounds that your average player doesn't give a good goddamn over the geopolitical details, the who-slept-with-whom or who-backstabbed-whom leading up to the Avanar-Vallia war four freaking centuries ago, for which game writers are all too wont to pen two or three pages detailing. "The Empires of Avanar and Vallia are longstanding and bitter enemies, having fought several wars and a number of skirmishes over the centuries," is all the vast majority of players wants to hear about anything taking place before his or her character's lifetime.

One thing we might want to consider is a flag - either imbedded into the software or as a societal thing - that would tag a sub as WIP / open for suggestions / completed / whatever. The notion of a give-and-take to "improve" a sub is only fruitful if the author wants one, and if the author doesn't feel he submitted a completed work.

Shorter, random comments

#3

* Should we really care that much about the ratio of page views vs. comments? Sorry, Mourngrymn, I disagree strongly on this one. The ratio of lurkers to users I see at the bottom of the screen is routinely 10:1, and that's about standard for most public RPG boards. A lot of people are really here to read quietly and/or grab stuff for their own use, or ...

* ... they don't have anything particularly useful or constructive to say. A lot of people don't. A number of regulars here don't, beyond "Great sub, I liked it a lot!" Well, yay, thanks, I mind egoboo no more than the next guy, but if you'd rather not take the time to do it, no skin off of my back. I promise not to feel disrespected if you don't, and I promise I didn't hate your sub just because I didn't comment or vote on it myself. (For one thing, I seem, like pretty much all other Strolenites, to have a limited number of votes at my command.)

Hm. More later, perhaps, but bed now. Running out of steam.

Re: The Future of This Site

#4

I haven't read Mourngrymn's sub just yet, so this is more of a response to you than to your critique.

The content for this site is not based on the needs of game publishers but on the whims of gamers and writers. You may see that as a downside, but I do not. In fact, it is one of the things that drew me in and will likely keep me here for quite some time. I like the fluff, as you call it. Partly because, as a GM, I like to know more than what I reveal to the players, and partly because I simply enjoy reading it. I don't view subs without it any less than those with it. I just enjoy it when it is there. I like the depth it portrays. And I am learning to use the same techniques to go further with my own subs. I don't understand what appears to me to be your efforts to change the site to fit your own preferences when they obviously don't fit in with the majority of the users. I like the comment system. I like the votes. The system is subjective and it may not be perfect, but it must be working or it wouldn't have survived for so long. (How long has it been? 10 years?)

Being critiqued is a part of the site. That is another thing that drew me in and keeps me here. If you don't agree with the critique, then ignore it. But don't automatically become combative or expect the critiques to stop. Let me reemphasize this: Critiquing is an essential part of the site and if you get upset whenever it happens, you are expecting the rest of us to conform to you. Yes, Echo could be more politic. But I have learned a thing or two from him and am grateful for his critiques on my own work.

One thing you might keep in mind. I have learned a thing or two from the critiques on others' subs. So, even though the critique may have gone unheeded (or the writer is no longer around), others do benefit.

I hate being so critical of another user. It isn't my normal style. I like peace and harmony and getting along. Yeah, I'm one of those goddamn hippy types. Whatever. Watching you and Echo go at it on The Barrows of the Forest Lords was ugly and I hope to never see that episode repeated.

Re: The Future of This Site

#5

Whoa, slow down there, hoss.

For one thing, where do you read that I'm trying to change this site to conform to my own prejudices? As it happens, my opinion was solicited in a PM as to what might be done to lessen the recent angst floating around. I made some suggestions. I'm unsure how you conflate that to making demands or sabotaging the preferences of the majority. Should a large percentage of people agree that (say) voting and levels are the way to go - a POV that, by the way, you haven't actually backed up by any actual evidence - then that's the way it is. I didn't contemplate any lobbying to support the suggestion, nor any hissy fits should people not favor it.

(For another, aren't you being a bit oversensitive for someone passionately defending the right to critique without rebuttal? "I like the way this is set up just fine, how dare you suggest significant changes?" doesn't particularly conform to the rest of your post.)

That being said, you're right on one thing: that battle between Echo and myself *was* ugly, which is why I stopped rather than respond to his last insults; no good could have come from further escalation. I'll reiterate that if you're rude and offensive to someone - "I'm only trying to help you improve" and "You act like it's perfect" being examples of both - you can't be shocked if the target takes offense.

Beyond that, yes, critique is an essential part of this site, and yes, getting upset when you're critiqued isn't a good idea. And neither is repeated poking of the stick. If I critique one of your pieces, and you rebut by saying you disagree with my perspective and you like your work just fine as is, I'm not going to barrage you with reply after reply telling you why you're wrong, or accuse you of being combative just because you've voiced your disagreement. (What, was I by definition being combative by leveling a critique in the first place?) I'm going to leave it at that. I've had my say, you've had your rebuttal, it's all good. This is just plain common courtesy.

Re: The Future of This Site

#6

These posts have very little to do with "The Future of This Site." I see a mention of removing the voting system, which I recognize as only a suggestion.

RG, I don't know who contacted you about your opinion, but you have not given it here. You write about your credits, and how you don't think you need to improve, but you don't give us any examples of comments you will accept. It looks like you're only looking for praise? Or nothing at all? You have me confused.

I read the "Barrow Lords" incident, and I'm on Echo's side. All he did was offer some insights, and you ran in an offended direction. Again, I really don't know what this thread is suppose to be, but I don't think it's going to be helpful to anyone.

Re: Shorter, random comments

#7

* Should we really care that much about the ratio of page views vs. comments? Sorry, Mourngrymn, I disagree strongly on this one. The ratio of lurkers to users I see at the bottom of the screen is routinely 10:1, and that's about standard for most public RPG boards. A lot of people are really here to read quietly and/or grab stuff for their own use, or ...

* ... they don't have anything particularly useful or constructive to say. A lot of people don't. A number of regulars here don't, beyond "Great sub, I liked it a lot!" Well, yay, thanks, I mind egoboo no more than the next guy, but if you'd rather not take the time to do it, no skin off of my back. I promise not to feel disrespected if you don't, and I promise I didn't hate your sub just because I didn't comment or vote on it myself. (For one thing, I seem, like pretty much all other Strolenites, to have a limited number of votes at my command.)

Hm. More later, perhaps, but bed now. Running out of steam.

I think you missed the edited portion. That sub was originally posted in December of 2005, six years ago, and edited a year after. It hasn't been touched by me in the content until now. Before the entire thought of all the views and no comments were because everything was being transferred over from the forums and the site was being inundated with subs that only a tenth of them were being looked at. Good material being pushed down to the dregs that should have been happily read. That was the original intent of the submission to respect the other Strolenites and read all the work not just your friends work.

As I had a decidedly long reply to this my train of thought has been distracted by my family and I lost most of what I wrote. Pretty much its intent was for people to respect everyone else and stop being asshats,

Re: The Future of This Site

#8

RG, I don't know who contacted you about your opinion, but you have not given it here. You write about your credits, and how you don't think you need to improve, but you don't give us any examples of comments you will accept. It looks like you're only looking for praise? Or nothing at all? You have me confused.

You may not AGREE with my opinion, but it doesn't mean I didn't venture one.

As far as examples of welcome comments go, perhaps you missed the paragraph in my initial post to this topic where I said "The critique I will accept is limited, and it pretty much boils down to answering this: without drowning the GM or players in more verbiage than they’re likely to want, what needs to be added to get them the information they need? What tricks did I miss in attempting to fulfill my intent? Am I leaving something obvious out?"

As far as who contacted me for my opinion, that was in a private message, and if he wants to disclose himself, that's fine by me. I'm unsure how it would matter, one way or another: either you agree with my comments or you don't or somewhere in between, no matter to whom they were originally written.

All the change in my pockets (2 pennies and a ball of fluff)

#9

I'm going to try this one point at a time,

1) There's too much fluff, it's like everyone is just trying to say, "Oh look at how pretty I can write!"
Alright, part of the reason the submissions have so much fluff in them is because, as a non-system specific site, it is one of the most effective ways available to us to describe how a weapon works, what a people/person is/are like, etc, etc. With the exception of a history tract or description of a town, which most published RP works I've seen rely primarily on text, the difference between this site and almost any published item in this field is that we can't use numbers. That +5 sword of vorpal awesomeness that you're describing is done entirely without listing the actual numbers behind it, which is generally all the player cares about anyway. Instead we describe the backstory, the myths, provide a genealogy of everyone who's ever so much as looked at said weapon. Yes RP you're right, this would never make it into a published work, it serves no purpose what-so-ever to advance whatever story you're pursuing at this point and by the time your PC that got this levels up he'll probably have found 2 or 3 different, better, swords. However, if you happen to have one of those players that like knowing all that stuff, but still likes having the bestest sword of god-slaying evah, the submissions on this site can be used to fill in the backstory for him/her.

2) The "Good Old Days"
This was actually the first point, but whatever. Since I've been on the site it's gone through peaks and troughs, it happens with any community. Recently however we've been losing people that have been on the site forever, and others like me are still here but haven't really submitted much or opened their mouths. Part of this can be ascribed to the fact that the site, god bless you Strolen I don't mean anything I'm about to say as a jab at you, has been under construction recently and people haven't been able to use chat and the like, where at least a good deal of my brainstorming came from back in the "Good Old Days." Between that and the forum not being used for much besides the occasional game, linking in stuff from the outside world, and announcements by Strolen has led at least me to become less involved with the site as a whole. Whatever, the site is more or less up and running again, and maybe eventually people will start migrating back or people will step up to replace them, we'll see.

3) Cheap Shots
You're right, cheap shots for someone writing in a style they don't like are wrong, however someone saying "I absolutely HATE how this is written isn't really a cheap shot, or an attack on the writer as a person, so much as what anyone reviewing anything that's written in a way they don't like. With that being said I'm jumping back into your ring and I'm going to say that if all you have to say is "I hate this because the writing is teh sux0r" you might as well just not comment at all. I'm personally of the opinion that the only real reason you should comment is if you have something constructive to say, however I know that a lot of the people on the site hate seeing a sub with 10 votes on it and not a single comment.

4) Length
I will entirely agree with you that there are some things on this site that quite possibly qualify at too long, but I'd truthfully rather a too long submission with a bit of purple prose than a barebones one that only lists what something does and a sentence or two of history. One thing you need to remember though, before you go comparing this site to SJ is that none of us are getting paid for this, we're putting these up for all the reasons you mentioned plus a love for writing. If I were going to submit something to SJ games I'd play by their rules, but their rules only extend to the door of their office, and out of that you're into the anarchy of the rest of the world. Now, I'm going to assume that by "down" in regards to the history comment, you mean that you actually like reading those detailed histories of worlds; power to you, they're one of the things I actually couldn't care less about. However, that just means if someone posts one up on the site, I don't read it and I don't vote, I don't actively go trying to ruin their score on said submission just because I hate those kinds of post from the get go.

5) Page Views
All I'm really going to say to this is that the page view vs comment is bust anyway, at any given time there's at least 5 spiders indexing the site, and they probably do this multiple times a day, every day, come hell or high water; even if no one on the site ever viewed a submission of yours I'm pretty sure by the end of the month you'd have a few hundred views on it, it sucks, it makes you feel bad if you look at the numbers, but you really need to remember that the numbers mean nothing.

6) Beating of the Dead Horse
It's a great way to make glue, but besides that it serves no purpose, you're right people shouldn't do it; part of the problem is that humans being pack animals vie for dominance, and being the last one to comment makes people feel bigger. Is it right? No. Will it go away? Probably not, despite how much I wish it would.

7) Accepting Critique
I really want to figure out some way to say 'suck it up' without coming across as a total asshat, so this might be a bit convoluted... By submitting your submission to the site you're basically saying, "Hey guys, what do you think?" You may not like that someone is critiquing you on some part of the writing process you don't really care about, I understand that, but you can't get angry when they do. For example, I'm going to use Moon here. The wonderful chap put out something like 300 submissions a year, a most of them were of the kind that you seem to be talking about, a paragraph long, described what it is and that was about it; most of those submissions of his got 3 or 3.5 as a vote, because they're SOLID submissions but they have nothing that really separated them from something that you'd find in a quality sourcebook somewhere. It's not a bad thing to do this, and you shouldn't be punished for doing it, but it's not what most of the regulars on the site view as quality, and that's just how the site is.

In closing
I understand that I might not have answered all of your points, or if I did actually manage to do that, I might not have answered them to your satisfaction, however I'm hoping that I put this giant wall of text down in time to stop the flame war that seems to be brewing in regards to your comments. Stay frosty gents.

Re: The Future of This Site

#10

Ease down on the Echo bashing everyone. Echo is a nice guy, brilliant, and talented. Like RGTraynor, me, MoonHunter, well, more or less everyone here, he has a strong belief in his own talent.

There has always been controversy around Echo, and I have been reduced to shambles myself once or twice in my forum games. But that is because I didn't understand Echo.

Echo is a wonderful guy, he is sincere, artistic, and perfectionist to the core. An elitist.
And he expects the same out of us, as he does of himself.

He means well, he means for us to improve, and perhaps then, RGTraynor, there is room for improvement even after 33 years of gaming? And Echo: Perhaps you should write your comment, not post it, but reread it and blunt the edges twice over?

You *are* quite thorny, and you know it! ;)

But I will give you one thing: If people doesn't want feedback and votes, well, perhaps that is a feature Strolen can provide? (Strolen, I am requesting your feedback on this)

If I got it my own way you would all continue posting here. Just respect that you are different, and quit that flaming of yours.

I like fluff. I enjoy fluff. I think the game publishing houses lack fluff. Hell, they lack quality gaming material altogether.

If I want quality material, I go to Strolen's.

And RGTraynor... This last comment was NOT targeted at you, but at the gaming houses.

Re: The Future of This Site

#11

I actually cut down on the thorns - there was no mean intent in my comments on RGTrayonor's works. But, surprise, I am still hopefully allowed to like some subs less and some more (at least until China takes us over).

Likewise, I wish to add that when I push a sub out there, I am willing to consider the suggestions of others, unless they go in the direction of "you suck, go die in a fire."

As for critique - sorry, but putting something out on a public forum and claiming it to be perfect amounts very much to hubris.
I'm no writer. I am a doctor. But if I ever come to believe I am perfect, shoot me in my head with a large caliber bullet, twice. Because otherwise, I will get people killed.

The voting system is, of course subjective, but I think it's generally a good way to browse for the better submissions if enough people vote. I suggest to keep it.
Also, the HoH are but a step towards becoming Golden, where a consensus must be reached.

As that is the sole tie to "the future of the site" I suggest changing the title of this topic to something more appropriate.

As for the immunity to critique you're looking for, I suggest posting the stuff in the forum, you might even get a board of your own. And then, you can write a submission linking it together, and all will exclaim "Splendid, wonderful! You're like a god amongst geeks." And all will be well.
But you know what would be best? Proceed as normal, ignore the one nitpicking comment if you have to, and the one lower rating will be lost amongst the better ones.
Live and let live. Be happy. Proceed with being happy.

So.

My $ 0.02 boil down to: this is a free site. We do not censor. We are generally benevolent, if at times (me, for example) socially inept. We do not swing the ban-hammer around nor hush those who think differently.

The whole forum should not change for the sake of one person.

Re: The Future of This Site

#12

You mostly managed to restrain yourself Echo.
The God among geeks comment was uncalled for though. :)

Cut some more thorns The Next time :)

Re: The Future of This Site

#13

Clicked the link from my email on accident so need to do a personal, selfish bump on it so it stays on the front page...not that I would forget it though. :)

((Some of the best ideas/mods have come from passionate discussion. I have no problem with it unless it alienates somebody...then I will do my best to grovel and beg to get them to come back!!)

Tomorrow most likely. Tonight I must CRASH!!!

Re: The Future of This Site

#14

My $ 0.02 boil down to: this is a free site. We do not censor. We are generally benevolent, if at times (me, for example) socially inept. We do not swing the ban-hammer around nor hush those who think differently.

The whole forum should not change for the sake of one person.

I'd have to agree 100% with this. So far this site has been one of the most tolerant of spirited discussion and subs that push the envelope. (The torture technique sub and my reverse abortion sub come to mind) It's that tolerance in part I think that makes people so willing to toss out creative concepts and not worry too much about "is this too over the top" or "is this any good?"

The voting system is a nice measure for the author of the publics opinion of the quality of their work, and it makes a nice tool to inspire discussion and feedback and improve the subs that fall short of their authors goals. It also works as a nice motivator to keep the ideas flowing and not give up. (I've been trying for a golden sub for a few years now without success, but that just encourages me to keep at it all the more.) Being able to see ones "level" increase based on their participation and ideas gives one a sense of progress and lets them measure their own growth in terms of quantity and quality over time.

Without the level's and the voting the site would feel lacking with the contributions existing more in a void without any real solid feel as to their over all "quality"in the eyes of fellow rpers/writers which would I feel, diminish the quality level and experience of Strolen's as a whole for everyone.

Re: The Future of This Site

#15

This wasn't half as bad as I thought it was going to be. I am going to just finger vomit for a little and see where it takes me. You will forgive me if I meander or if this sounds a bit self serving before getting to any substantial point? Skip to the last paragraph if you are easily bored. :)

Most know I am in the military and have been since 92. I was lucky enough to have groups through 2000 but that is where live RPing really ended for me but I still loved the culture and the fun in seeing new worlds. When I didn't have the group, I missed it bad!!! Because I still loved the creative side of role playing and the fantasy genre I needed this outlet. I wanted to share my ideas and read others. I like being creative and I like reading other's ideas as well. I wanted, or needed, a role playing fix after I lost my game.

I love the creativity that comes out, not that there is a kobold sword +3. What the hell does that mean? I want to know where it came from, why it was made, who used it and why it is now available. It isn't so much the immediacy of the submission's useability, it is the ideas that can be generated from it. That one kobold sword +3 could spawn an entire session or campaign if written well. THAT is what I love. A creative GM could take any idea, pull it out of context and use it in any number of ways. That is the true beauty of it all, at least in my idealistic mind. For me, it happens in almost every solid post. In the “old days” ™ we shared these ideas in the forum and built on each other, it was fun and sometimes very silly.

So that was a bunch of crap, so here is my point.

I am 100% about the idea or just the seed of an idea. That is my focus and my care and my love. If I could, I would kick grammar right in the nuts because wurd spelings and odd sentices dont bother me as much when there is a sweet idea cooking in there. Sure, fix that crap because it is annoying to read and often detracts, but when there is a good idea in there, you can spel like crap and I will luvz it!!!!

Not the elegant or utilitarian prose, not the grammar or sentence structure, not my taste or my expectation but the core idea and its usability. If you can take that idea and spin it your own way and enjoy it, then throw the rest of the crap that you don't like out. That core idea is what I am looking for and what should be getting the vote.

That says nothing about the comments though. Sure request it to be fixed and maybe point out some grammar if you feel you must, but give the idea the credit it deserves.

I loved RGTraynor's metaphor with the potluck,,,but will spin it this way. Each individual sub is a potluck spread to me. Each person reading it may take something different off the table and rearrange, collect other things to combine with it or simply salt it to their taste. The author/cook didn't make it that way but those eating it are enjoying it and making something they love to eat regardless.

The “Add an Idea” portion that we tend to use only for lists and such was supposed to be for this. But either we are too chicken or too self-conscious about our ideas to share them in such an intimate space. I know I am. I made the damn thing but don't know how and am too intimidated to use it correctly. How is it for the rest?

So what do I see?

I see that the main Citadel has become more formalized, maybe too formalized. The loose freedom of sharing ideas that we used to have in the forum has deteriorated quite a bit. It seems that, once a sub is presented, it is like the great reveal. The expectation is that it is done and should be as close to perfect as humanly possible and it is, in turn, critiqued that way. We seem to be looking for that Golden Standard every time now. The full package, not just the idea. Because of these high expectation we are often very unforgiving in comments/votes. We are also more hesitant to reveal what we have written. We don' t have that honeymoon of idea mode that often anymore, we go straight to critique.

Are we now food critics? Did we lose the carefree fun and celebration of the potluck atmosphere? It might be a chicken with a lot of greens, vegetables and seasoning on it or maybe it is just BBQed, but there is still chicken in the middle. People are missing some good eating by not wiping off some of the greens or adding salt to their liking.

Have we become even more elitist over time? We have always acknowledged that it is difficult or intimidating for newbies to join. The site gets 8-10K unique visitors (not page views) a month. There is a reason we only have a small core of authors, what is it I wonder? The quality could be daunting as could be the comments. I like to try and blame the system and think design could fix something but there are some shitty ass sites out there that bring in people by the 1,000s. I think it is simply intimidating to the new folks to post and/or comment. Everything is free as mentioned, easier to just grab something and run. I don't blame them at all. When we had the freedom of the forums we had a great many different folk come in, many annoying, but they brought in a light side...and we drove them off and now the forums are basically dead. I think we need some of that back.

Other thoughts

The votes and comments are here to stay. I just can't see being without them. I have seriously toyed with dumping them but my week off has brought me back to keeping them. Realistically people like to get them and give them and they serve an important part of the Citadel. People simply like ratings, I like ratings. Despite the issues, and RGTraynor hit a few of them as we have in the past, I think we would be worse off if they were missing. We have done a lot of experimenting with them, show votes, show who voted what, no votes showing etc. but we keep going back to show that somebody voted but not their vote. Not like it is a mystery in many cases. We could do more experimenting there if we want, you all know I am not scared of changing things if it is what the majority want.

XP and leveling. Another debate that has gone on for a bit. Most ignore XP after they have been here a little bit and get the HoH. They have just enough purpose to have a reason for being but not enough that they really do matter. They allow HoHs and Golden votes at the proper time and there are a few other automated allowances for the higher level that assist in my job. Anyway, it is the core of RPing, how could we not do XP?

I think my biggest lament right now is more towards what Mourn mentioned about the forum part of the site missing. I very much miss the forum and all the action that we used to have. We could be loose and have fun there without worrying about anything. I think I regret having the Request Advice put in the main Citadel. That feature has always languished despite our attempts. Same with the In work honestly. They all might as well be private with all the action they get. I am thinking about removing that feature and pushing that back to the forum. Advice Requested and Public – In Work = gone. I think anything in work that you want to share or have help on should be in the forum. Private – In Work still works for me though and I think that is a handy feature for many.

So, all that and I guess I have no point. Will bounce a few things around but basically wanted to get some thoughts down. There will probably be more as I play with a few things based on feedback I am hoping to get on that last paragraph.

For what it's worth...

Re: The Future of This Site

#16

I am an extremely sporadic submitter. My initial burst was years ago- after receiving a lukewarm initial reception (there's literally a reply in one of my subs where somebody mentions me getting scared off) I bailed from the site for a while.

I approach a sub from an extremely game oriented point of view. I write and read as a DM, either to supply other DMs with material for their games, or for material to use for my own.

Bearing that in mind, I do have a few suggestions for the site in general:
1: A page for HoH and Golden subs- a list. Literally. Right now, to my knowledge, you can only sift through random HoH/Golden, and I'd honestly like a big honking list of them all.

2: As a counterpart to quests, I feel a community submission could be viable where a single submission is the collective work of every author on Strolen- with appropriate XP and rewards handed out at the end for things like "Most Constructive Editor" or "Most Hilarious Addition" and so forth. Of course the framework required for this might not be feasible.

3: I'd really like the submission platform overhauled a tad. Chalk this up to a pet peeve, but I constantly forget to check the button to have it automatically convert BBCode, and that's basically all I'll use to post a submission online. Perhaps a site preference to check that by default?

Just remember RGTraynor, some things are sure to piss you off (Like all the people saying that Parietal is a bad name for a NPC- my stance is that if you're using that character in your game, change the name.)- but you can't forget the good (

Re: The Future of This Site

#17

Excellent thoughts. It is good to hear these things and see what is easy or difficult to figure out on the Citadel as well.

Let me throw some info and comments:

1. Golden's and HoH's can be sorted per category but, indeed, there is not a page dedicated to either which seems like a very logical need! That can be accomplished without a great deal of difficulty!

2. This probably fits on the beta feature that needs more beta testing as the "wiki" type sub. An example is here: http://strolen.com/viewing/6055 (feel free to experiment there). This one did fall to the wayside and I honestly hadn't thought about it for a bit. Back on the list to get working well!!! (not sure what state it is, some more beta testing and posting of experiences would be a great benefit. Post thoughts here: http://strolen.com/guild/index.php/topic,5260.0.html

3. Ouch. This is probably one that I won't get to. Most folks probably don't use the BBcode and to fix the initial missed checking of the box shouldn't take more than an edit and checking the box for a resubmission. If there are issues with that, please let me know as I am sure there are workarounds for it. I hate saying no, so I will just say probably not. :(

I appreciate the time you took to mention these things. You basically gave me a good kick to the nuts to get back to work on the wiki and the hoh/golden pages isn't a bad idea at all!

Thanks!

Re: The Future of This Site

#18

I completely second the call for a page dedicated to Goldens, at the very least. Seeing them all there together (and maybe being able to sort them by category, date and the like) would be really cool.

Re: The Future of This Site

#19

Bump due to recent discussions.

Why write what still sits fairly accurately with me I suppose.

Oh, and I am super lazy!

Re: The Future of This Site

#20

Hmm, there seems to be 3 populations of submitters - which varies as the same person could be at different modes at different times, or even concurrently.

1. Idea Sharer
Just wants to put a cool idea out there, not so concerned about presentation apart from avoiding total crap.

2. Golden Standard
Wants to put out ideas and writing, as Moonhunter puts it, good enough to be in a published fantasy novel (or other publication) and wants to be held to the standard.

3. Wants to put out quality ideas and writing, but also does not want to participate in the messy business of review, etc.

So how to accommodate all these varied interests? All are valid under the Strolen Tent.

1. Closed Submissions

A Closed submission is not soliciting advice but is offered up as-is to the audience. Closed submissions still receive feedback through comments, and have the 'I used this' and HOH options open to them, as well as promotion to Golden. Voting would not be open on these. As a result, admins would be responsible for dealing with submissions of dubious value or very poor quality. There are no level restrictions on using this type of submission.

2. Open Submissions

Strolen's Default - Its offered up for use, but feedback is actively solicited. Voting is accepted and once the author feels it is ready, they can moving it to Closed if desired - there is no requirement for this and no xp awarded for the transition. Open subs get "I used This", HOH and Golden options as well.

3. Workshop Submissions

This are the current in-work, but as prominent as the other three or in a section Strolen's Workshop. Here submissions are open for commentary, but not voting. They still can be marked as "I used this' and HOH'd for bumpage, and can be moved to either Closed or Open submissions. # inwork submission level limitation should be dropped.

Of the three, the closed submission is the new one, and would probably fill the bill for what RG was looking for. It could also be used by new submitters who just want to share an idea without the drama of voting.

So really, this is simply a rework of the suggestion of disabling voting on a sub-by-sub basis. However, by being a separate submission type, perhaps in its own list/area, the assumption on those is that critique is not solicited and this may work better.

The discussions on the Good Old Days of collaborative submissions could perhaps be handled by making the Workshop submissions as prominent on the main page as new Open and Closed submissions - perhaps even more weighted in the favour of these. Provide lots of XP for helping. Lift limitations on # of in works

Anywhere we are listing submissions (search, category,author) no preference should be made for Open, Closed or Workshop submissions, but give the option of selecting if each of the three categories are included in the result.

Stubs could be ditched - make them Workshop subs if they are placeholders, or Closed otherwise.

Workshop subs replace both Public in work and Advice Requested. Cries for additional help on workshop subs could be made in the forums. Perhaps an HOH applied in the workshop is converted into an SOS, evening allowing this to be done to one's own submission.

I'm rambling, but some ideas.

Re: The Future of This Site

#21

Random thoughts:

...but there are some s**tty ass sites out there that bring in people by the 1,000s.

That is a thought that keeps me up at night sometimes. Why do the "shitty" sites have thousands of users? We need to figure this out, and grab a larger piece of the pie! Simple as that.

(Not to mention that some of these sites even charge annual fees/subscriptions and still get new members in droves. And we have trouble with donations!)

Is it possible for example, that this site gets more of the "been there, done that" crowd of rp'ers and authors? It seems like that sometimes. Or is that too pompous of a thought? If we go with the mantra, "All that matters is the Idea", and overhaul voting, critiquing etc what will this accomplish? Would we get 50+ new "active" members after a year's time? Would things be better? I don't know, but it's fascinating to ponder.

I honestly don't understand why we get so few new members that stick. I don't. I've heard all of the "reasons", but still am not convinced there isn't *something* else, something we're not *seeing*.

--------

Unrelated and minor thought on getting forums more active: Just one small idea of many, but HIDE the role-playing posts. I myself have have seen in 8 years here, that whenever the active RPs are flowing, people tend to bother less with forum posting, and fewer new people pop in with greetings, ideas, or whatnot. If you're not playing in one, the last thing you want to see every day is fifteen straight posts, entitled, "Re: Dungeon of Death, Episode IV".

Re: The Future of This Site

#22

So, while wandering into the site i stumbled upon this thread.

I really don't know the history of the site, other "rival" sites or similar things but as a new user i think that i can give some useful ( i hope ) feedback.

Imo, while the site is really nice and full of things it has some probelm into the usability side. The usability of a site is a huge factor in deciding how many visitor will convert into users (even more if you consider how lazy the average internet surfer his).

Just to make a few example of what i mean:

The first time you enter in the site, without being registered you see a nice home page that try his best to present in the same place all (that's a lot) the site can offer, the moment you register and log-in you'll never see it again, this can be confusing for some people.

In said page you see the "Looking for a challenge" section (which is quite nice), hopefully after the registration you'll want to try and join a guild. But when you log-in you have no idea of where the guild (or the forum) are. The menu "library" really don't mean anything for most people, they won't think that the forum is listed here, just with this you have lost more people than you think.

In the guilds recruit quest text is always required the related freetext, but you can't use freetext until you are level 3. Aside the fact that is strange to promote the guild system even before registration and then put a limit on it, this must be clearly stated into the quest, i know that in other places is explained what freetext is and work but since the site is very big, with a lot of helpful thread one can easily have missed That restriction. Basically threat people like "idiots" (I'm one of them too) and at least link the freetext thing, and still you should say that he must be at least level 3 to join a guild.

As said there are a lot of really helpful thread for new people but they are scattered all around, the site is so big that people will have questions, 100% sure. There is the need of a FAQ page, and not a submenu.

The first time you have to submit something (and I'm not joking, I'll make a faq "where to go when you want to submit something") the text editor can be a little confusing. For instance a lot of submission make us of the blackquote, but while writing a draft i had to insert them with HTML, and i know what code to use only by using the dev tools.

So some little things like

-The forum as a standalone menu item, not as a child.

-A complete FAQ page as a standalone menu item.

-The level 3 thing clearly stated into the quests

-The FAQ page linked even into the forum menu

may actually help, maybe a lot maybe not.

I hope that this is actually usefull and not seen as a rant of some newcomer. I know how hard it is to keep a site and a forum, and the work done into this site is clearly full of love and i can't even imagine the time spent building it; so all of this is not meant in the slightest as a critic to it or to anyone. If all of this was already considered, was already something in construction or similar thing feel free to virtually slap me in the face.

Re: The Future of This Site

#23

Hear hear!

IMHO the bit about the availability of the forum is super important!

Re: The Future of This Site

#24

Great post, el!

Re: The Future of This Site

#25

Quick, interrogate this newbie before he becomes fully integrated into the Strolenati mind...

Excellent points, el. That's the kind of stuff that's hard to see after being here awhile. Now, if you'll kindly sit in this chair... Don't mind the straps... Or the knives on that table...

Re: The Future of This Site

#26

Thanks for the feedback, eleclipse. As MM suggested, I think we old timers have been around through so many site upgrades and whatnot that we don't even notice if things are difficult to navigate anymore, we just do it instinctively.

I had to log myself out one day last week and noticed the main page looks a lot different compared to when one is logged in. Which do you think looks better, eleclipse? Or rather, which is more useful?

Re: The Future of This Site

#27

Brilliant!!

Some of those are rather new changes so half-assed so you have some outstanding points that hit the nail on the head!

I do tend to cater to the active users more than I think of newbies entering our realm. I have been slowly trying to fix that and your suggestions are gold.

Thank you for taking the time to point these things out. And don't stop, you are on a roll and your thoughts and comments are extremely helpful!

Re: The Future of This Site

#28

Quick update/experiments.

1) Made new homepage the default and no longer hide it from logged in users. Old hats, deal with it for now. Made a note for this to be something you can turn off in your profile in v5.0. Will even allow you to put in a redirect of your choice.

2) Popped a forum link up there in the header.

3) Changed freetext to a level 1 ability. In theory (testers would be great to verify) you should only be able to use established freetext, and not be able to create your own. So that shouldn't be an issue as all the guilds already have freetexts established.

That is all I messed with for the moment.

Re: The Future of This Site

#29

I had to log myself out one day last week and noticed the main page looks a lot different compared to when one is logged in. Which do you think looks better, eleclipse? Or rather, which is more useful?

I would say that for a new comer the first one is better, for anyone who understood the basic the "Logged in" version is by far the most usefull. That's because they are two different kind of page, the first is like a static presentation for newcomer, sort of a "about us" page the second is basically a blog/news section; which his the heart of site like this.

Probably the best solutions, imho, would be make the not-logged version an about us page when you log in (of course assuming there's space for it into the nav bar) and keep the logged-version as the home when you are logged in

Brilliant!!

Some of those are rather new changes so half-assed so you have some outstanding points that hit the nail on the head!

I do tend to cater to the active users more than I think of newbies entering our realm. I have been slowly trying to fix that and your suggestions are gold.

Thank you for taking the time to point these things out. And don't stop, you are on a roll and your thoughts and comments are extremely helpful!

Happy to know that was useful! Also thanks! You were incredibly fast.

Aside from the FAQ (that of course will need more time to be prepared) and the other things i said nothing else come to my mind at the moment, if i stumble upon some other things i'm my travel at the discovery of strolen's cittadel i'll post it here!

Thanks again for your availability, now to work on my first submission!

Edit: Tested the freetext and i still can't use it

Re: The Future of This Site

#30

I've asked for the forum to have it's own button in the past, because it is a pain to navigate the drop down menus through a smartphone.

I think we also need to consider how many people are accessing the site not through dedicated computers, but tablets and smartphones.

Re: The Future of This Site

#31

Truth Scras. V5 is already much better on phones and tablets.