Administrator Instructions

1. Administrator Instructions

   #1

   Not really, but got your attention. Just some requests from me on how to handle some things gathered from the other posts, mostly obvious but never hurts to reinterate.
   
   MAIN SITE
   1.  For each submission start a new topic with the following:
   --Title of submission is title of thread
   --Link to the submission
   --Copy and paste the entire submission to the post.
   -----(This is so in the future if somebody asks why we can go back and tell them exactly why, also saves the other admins from having to view it, they can just read it and remember)
   --Start a Poll for it to delete or not delete or undecided. (If people can't decide is is a not delete, but they may not want to say not delete)
   
   2.  Simply Voting is fine, but more convenient to others to reply to the post and give an opinion. May not be necessary on all of them.
   
   3.  If a submission is iffy, how long do we give them to get something constructive out of them?
   
   4.  When at least two people say definately delete. Go ahead an do it, then post in that thread that the submission has been deleted and CHANGE THE TOPIC HEADING TO SAY DELETED so we can stop looking at it. We should keep the topic there for a bit though in case the owner complains but after a couple months we can start deleting the old DELETED threads. (Will start a new thread on this one about PMing before deletion and edit this to reflect our decision.)
   
   5.  Once there is a firm deletion decision, any admin can delete it and go ahead and do it. Just mark that thread deleted.
   
   FORUMS
   1.  Feel free to delete posts that wonder completely off the relevance scale in a given thread.
   
   2.  The "Greetings Travelers" is an exception considering the reason for it. Let the do whatever unless it is rude.
   
   3.  The "Citadel Tavern" can have annoying threads to us as long as they stay inside those threads. If the thread has a set topic and there is abnormal deviation from the thread, just delete it.
   
   4.  All other forums should stay on topic and there is little reason for anybody just getting wierd in them. I have been deleting posts for a couple weeks now and nobody seems to notice.

2. Dirty Laundry Time! (in private where it belongs)

   #2

   Okay, I have a comment about the way things are being run around here:
   
   If we admins disagree, should we do so in public or in the admin forums (or even worse: in the public chat)? Personally I dislike when admins come with snide remarks and undermine each others authority in the public forums / on the main site, I shake my head in disbelief and believe it is not a good policy.
   
   I have witnessed such behaviour on several occasions and it is a culture that seems to be getting out of hand. Airing dirty laundry / undermining the authority of other admins is a hallmark of bad leadership and low integrity. It is also bad when we belittle regular users who are politely stating their honest opinion, based upon their experience, preference and age. We should treat everyone with respect! This is not to say that a harsh review is bad. People post here to be reviewed and when doing so they willingly take that risk. No: I talk about feedback to those reviews (ie. this and that admin do not approve of the opionion of the reviewer or do not approve of someones decision)
   
   We admins are different from each other and it is impossible for all of us to agree, but could we PLEASE keep internal dissent to the admin forums?
   
   Could we refrain from overruling the opinion of other people in the forums / on the main site, even non-admins? Everyone should be entitled to their own opinion: From the uninitiated newcomers to the most venerable of sages.
   
   No one owns the truth. No one.

3. Re: Administrator Instructions

   #3

   It is better with direct examples but I can sort of get the gist of it from what you wrote. Under a little stress about the site already (which I will air in another topic) so seeing this did not make me happy at all.
   
   First. Submission Comments.
   We are rude. We are egotistical. We expect perfection. We tell them that.
   
   This has chased off numerous very good posters and has scared others that have been convinced to stay. Are we now starting with people that are commenting?
   
   There are much more cordial ways to critique somebody without flambasting them or telling them what they should think. I cringe everytime I read one of these nonconstructive rude comments and it does bother me. I may have had added a cut of my own here or there but I think I have always succeeded in trying to keep it constructive or at the very minimum, non-personal.
   
   Now that the forum is going away there is no excuse for us to continue this practice. We are now encouraging people to post in the Citadel by taking away the outlet in the forum. Yes, there will still be forums, but the setup pushes submissions into the Citadel.
   
   We cannot tell people what or how to post, we can only suggest. We cannot dictate what is a good post or what is not or what is a valid comment or not. If we disagree, that is fine and expected. But we must be conscience of the level we go with our critiques. After all, if admins were smacking around me at a site I was visiting I would probably leave or at the very least return to my lurker status. Many comments that are scattered about might have kept me as a lurker! I don't need that stuff at a site I go to for fun and to stretch my creativity muscles. I expect to be appreciated for anything I bring to the place.
   
   We must simply deal with what happens and encourage through POSITIVE motivation what they might want to do next time or try with the current. We do only want full submissions in the Citadel but if it doesn't happen like that then we can't start flaming them. We must help them understand the way we are trying to organize the place and lead them, not kick them around. If somebody has a completely contrary opinion then mine it is good for debate, but not attacks. Find out why they think that way, encourage more discussion, not just tell them why we are right and they are wrong.
   
   I have no idea what was said or what post/comment brough on AG's ire but I am sure everybody reading this has seen something somewhere to the affect. It is not new.
   
   So what do we do? How do we handle this?
   
   
   
   

4. Re: Administrator Instructions

   #4

   There is no single post that brought this reaction from me. It is a long series of posts that I have reacted to, I even have a folder with screenshots in case the offensive text is removed. But I do not want to single out anyone in particular. There is no gain in that, except to hurt people I really do like after all. But there is a culture that is not healthy here, and I will be truthful and admit: Yes, I have made posts that I later regretted. I have, however, tried to refrain from such posting ever since I became an admin. Being an admin carries extra responsibility and we should all remember that.
   
   So I use myself as example
   
   What did I do wrong? Well, I was WAAAY to hard on Greccio (who really got under my skin) and I was WAAAY to harsh with people I expect much from (like Scrasamax). I hope to have put these errors of judgment behind me and now I try to encourage instead of discourage, nurture instead of choke. For in the end Scrasamax has an huge amount of talent, which I hope I have not discouraged, and even Greccio/Alia will one day grow up and perhaps become a talented young individual.
   
   Ylorea ran away. m0s0g ran away. People I know and love have several times confided in me that X or Y makes them feel inferior, bad or just ill at ease. I have also become very unhappy on occasion with what I have read.
   
   So Strolen, you ask what we do...
   Here are my 2 cents:
   - We expect more from our admins and tell them so
   - We actively administrate the forums and remove offensive content based on personal judgment. If MoonHunter finds my post offensive: Remove it and pm it to me, or post it in this forum for internal discussion.
   - We differ between honest opinion / low voting, and rude comments / harassing voting.
   - We do not undermine or belittle anyone. Nor do we ridicule anyone. (Perhaps even in feedback. Must we really tell people that their post is "munchkin and ridiculous"? Perhaps "overpowered and needs more work" is a better choice of words?)
   
   You are all great guys and I know many of you and respect you as truly remarkable persons. Could we not show everyone that we are just that? A collection of nice guys that do not need to be rude to be heard.
   
   

5. Re: Administrator Instructions

   #5

   I found an exchange, and deleted it since it didn't add anything to the post.
   
   Let me comment on Challenges from my perspective.
   
   Anybody can challenge ANYTHING! That is why it is a challenge system and why it takes 3 votes (or more if we determine it needs more) to actually do anything to it. If there is a challenge there is no need to banter about it, just vote. That is why there is a vote.
   
   Something that needs to be challenged in my mind might be different then somebody else's. I don't believe we should challenge something just because it is crap. A one sword post that has a full story, even if it is ubermunchkin or nonsensical, still is a full submission and deserves what votes it gets. If it is a half post with just a few statements that leave too much hanging or unexplained then it probably needs to be updated. As long as it is a full thought and reflects what the author is trying to say (good or bad) then I think it can stay and that is how I will vote.
   
   If you must comment about a challenge, then comment on the actual submission. What needs to be fixed/updated to make it acceptable in your eyes. Then we will see the challenge, read the helpful suggestions for the submissions, and hopefully be more understanding on why it was challenged and at least respect that if not agree.
   
   -------
   
   As far as removing stuff. I really don't like doing it personally and use it only as a last result. Maybe we need to look a little harder at some of the comments and simply have a No Rude Comment hard fast rule. If the comment in any way, shape, or form, could be found as being harassing or flamish then it is removed. No questions asked or requested. Hit them in the XP. Perhaps I make a new button to delete these comments, flag it to the user so they can see it, and remove a chunk of XP from them. It is actually very easy to be constructive and be negative without attacking a person if we would take their time to do it. We are getting XP for comments, we should be earning that.
   
   We should also create some posts in Articles perhaps and start using them. We have how to improve you post (although hard to link to ;) could be a shorter title and then identify them as your tips in the article). We perhaps need one on cliche, one on munchkin items, one on stat specifics stuff, etc. Just make a new Article Category as Citadel Writing Tips or something. We already discussed why this was a good idea. Saves us having to rewrite comments and gives the author a solid place to read constructive ideas on how to do things.
   
   We are just starting out with V2.0 and it is a shift in how we have been doing stuff. It might take a little bit to get there but if we all agree on the philosophy of the site and how to manage it I think we would be much better off.

6. Re: Administrator Instructions

   #6

   I'll try to be brief as I want other admins to have a go at this thread too:
   -Administrator / Site Policy: I'd really like for discretion and what we have spoken of here to be a part of the site policy (possibly pm'ed to admins before they attain admin status with a yes/no requirement attached)
   -Loyalty: Please let us be loyal to each other, even if we are different. Some admins sound like they have been married 40 years too long the way they bash each other.

7. Re: Administrator Instructions

   #7

   Today I witnessed some more bad behaviour. MoonHunter got bashed this time when people (2 different users) accused him of not talking to them, or uttering aloud that he was annoying ( in the chat and in the shoutbox).
   
   I suspect this will be like water off the back of a duck (for I picture you as confident and strong Moon), but I would be hurt if I read such things about me.
   
   Perhaps it is only me. Perhaps I am overreacting, but... well. I do not like it. Not when admins do it. Not when users do it. If people really want to discuss these things, they ought to do it in private, where it belongs.

8. Re: Administrator Instructions

   #8

   Mmmmm.... Have I done any of this?
   I mean, beyond harpooning bad grammar?

9. Re: Administrator Instructions

   #9

   You haven't even been around CP... How can you do anything wrong when you aren't here?
   I have had a skirmish with MoonHunter, but that is solved now. On my end at least. There seems to be some disagreement as to how things will be run around here now that the Citadel is all new and shiny.
   
   Basically MoonHunter is a real workhorse and has made a tremendous effort to convert things to new Citadel standards. In the wake of that there have been some disagreements. Mostly these are between MoonHunter and citadellians who disagree with the course he has staked out.
   
   As soon as these difficulties are over I hope things will stabilize over here.

10. Re: Administrator Instructions

    #10

    
    Mmmmm.... Have I done any of this?
    I mean, beyond harpooning bad grammar?
    

    
    
    Actually don't care CP. Not trying to point fingers or dig up the past. We are all guilty of being rude at some point and I am trying to make us conscience of that and trying to make us change that habit.
    
    Looking for a fresh start with a set of defined rules is all I am thinking.
    
    The old way "We are rude. We are egotistical. We expect perfection. We tell them that." is DEAD. I am looking for the kinder, gentler, more open Citadel that has soft gloves for newbies and opinions. Hence the Code of Conduct thread. I am trying to get all the admins to understand this so we can continue being SUPER polite and treat people with the respect they deserve as members of an idea sharing site.

11. Re: Administrator Instructions

    #11

    As for being rude, that's bad. In a way we should keep in heart something that I can imagine most of us were told as children. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. If you give someone a low vote, and have nothing good to say, then don't. Let your 1 vote stand for itself.
    
    I could write a very long MoonHunter-esque article on the proper modes of literary critique, but I'm not going to. (Mostly since I'm not Moon, who really deserves a great deal of credit for being the Atlas that has done so much work for the Citadel).
    
    Tell something that was good about their post, and then tell them something that was bad about their post. Politely. Then tell them how they might fix it, or how they could improve the post in general. Three writing action events.
    
    We avoid flames, we pay closer attention to the stinkers, trying to find something good in the post, and believe me there can be some really really rough diamonds in the crap. Perhaps we even become better posters ourselves.
    
    

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