Voting with no 1/2 swords?

1. Voting with no 1/2 swords?

   #1

   Don't Vote Till You Read
   
   I am going to vote for going back to 5 votes.
   
   I can't find what Moon wanted to name the votes but here is a thought on what each of them can mean if there are only 5.
   
   Updated voting ratings
   1 = Needs some serious work - not ready for public consumption
   2 = OK idea but flawed. Has a few issues but it can still be useable by some
   3 = Good solid idea. Nothing fancy, just a great, useable, quality submission
   4 = Sweet idea with some artistic flair or increased usefulness that really set it apart.
   5 = Exceptional Submission. Extremely useable, well written, and organized.
   
   Original
   1 = Needs some serious work - not ready for public consumption
   2 = OK idea. Has a few issues but it can still be useable by some
   3 = Good solid idea. Nothing fancy, just a great, useable, quality submission
   4 = Sweet idea with some unique parts that really set it apart from other simpler good solid ideas.
   5 = I creamed myself when I read it. So awesome that I wish I could roll up into a ball with it and murmur sweet nothings in its ear for eternity.
   
   In this case a 3 is a perfectly good vote that everybody should be more than happy with. It means it is a good idea and that others can definitely use it.
   a 4 pushes the envelop and shows a great effort or has a unique idea that works really really well
   a 5 should be a rare instance when the moons align and awesomeness takes the form of words.
   
   With all the other in betweens they really don't help anything, they just cause more voting anxiety and voting should be mindless.
   
   I try to equate it to how I rate movies. When you vote on a movie you pretty much know if you liked it or if it was just ok.
   
   A 1 just sucked and you probably stopped it half way through.
   
   A 2 is a crappy movie but had some cool parts but probably would never watch it again.
   
   The movies that were fun and well worth watching would be a 3. These are the ones that are just a good distraction for a couple hours and you are glad you went.
   
   A movie that you had a lot fun watching or there were some great parts that you just loved and you would watch it again should be a 4.
   
   A movie that just totally kicked ass and you would buy and watch over and over and maybe even sleep with the DVD box should be the 5.
   
   When rating a movie I don't need all that in betweeness that just forces me to analyze my feelings even more on it. I just want to decide if I liked it or not and move on.
   
   I think the votes are overly complex and force an overanalyzing when given so many options. Just take it back to the basics so we can concentrate on our initial feeling of the submission instead of debating that feeling to the point where we don't know what we would vote anymore.
   
   I didn't like it = 2
   Oh, wow! That was an interesting idea, cool. = 4
   That was a great post,  I think I could use it = 3
   OMG - THAT was AWESOME!!!!one!!111one = 5
   WTF? = 1
   
   Let us know what you think.

2. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

   #2

   I voted to go back to 5 votes. You made a very good argument, Strolen. I think the 5 vote system will work alot better and leave a lot less confusion all around. Good idea!

3. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

   #3

   I hate base swords for results, just rounding down or up in odd ways. I want the results to be fractional, even if our votes are not.
   
   What Moon would like, 1/2 votes or not, is a well labeled, highly defined, guideline for the vote.  Our current labeling system for the votes, in my opinion, is responsible for some of the odder problems we have had in our voting (certain member's polar voting, wide variations, difference between European/ American members, and a couple of other things). We should be less subjective in our voting and set an objective standard, in which we can apply our opinions too.
   
   These are working ideals, but I think these will form a good model
   
   Submissions should be:
   Written well - mechanically  (minimal language issues). 
   Written well - in a clear, well defined, and logical order.
   Useful for a gamer/ GM
   
   This should be the benchmark for 3.0 
   
   To improve on this, ideally...
   Very useful for a gamer. Not just something to could be used, but something that should be used.
   Well writen - artistically.
   
   What ever score you have, should be adjusted up or down due to your personal opinion on the piece. There are many pieces that objectively, I find great, but that I personally just hate. I assume others of you are in that opinion. So you should shift it up or down, based on your own personal taste. (Personally hate it -1 level or -1/2 or personally love the piece. +1 level or + 1/2)
   
   So roughly speaking
   1 - Incomplete, confusing, distracting. needs to be rewored.
   2 - flawed
   3 - Hits the benchmarks
   4 - Hits all the benchmaks with artistic flair and increased usefulness.
   5 - Top 10% of all subs, meets 
   
   So, using the ideals from above....
   
   1 - Unclear in execution, confused in explanation, needs a full rewrite to be useful to anyone.
   
   2 - Unclear in its write up or not useful for a gamer -directly or as inspiriation, with a minimum of language issues, or too many language issues, but very useful for a gamer. 
   
   3 - writen in a clear and well defined manner and is useful for a gamer - directly or as an inspiration, with a minimum of language issues.
   
   4 - A 3.0 submission that is well formatted, that is also either very useful, done artistically, or very well explained. 
   
   5-  A very useful submission, explained well, done artistically, well formatted, and few to no language issues. 
   
   Strolen, we had worked something out while waiting around @ Strolencon, not in the airport. If you could find those and post them up.

4. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

   #4

   Voted.

5. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

   #5

   What I had written at the Con is more incomplete than what we have above:
   
   5    Exceptional Post! Extremely useable. Best of site.
   4.5
   4    Superior Post. Useful and well written
   3.5
   3    Good Solid Useable Post
   2.5 Show sme definite promise
   2    Idea is there, needs work
   1.5 Has a seed of usefulness
   1
   
   
   Those are far from perfect and just underemphasize what we both have rewrote above.
   
   Newest ones stealing a couple ideas from yours:
   
   1 = Needs some serious work - not ready for public consumption
   2 = OK idea but flawed. Has a few issues but it can still be useable by some
   3 = Good solid idea. Nothing fancy, just a great, useable, quality submission
   4 = Sweet idea with some artistic flair or increased usefulness that really set it apart.
   5 = Exceptional Submission. Extremely useable, well written, and organized.
   
   I steered away from the use of benchmark because then we have to spend time describing what the benchmark is and everybody will have different benchmarks that they go by. I am very much leaning towards the gut and the feeling you have after reading it. No rereading 3 times (unless you need to) to try and figure out if it met certain criteria.
   
   I just want to read something and vote my gut without having to worry about it. Vote comment and move on.
   
   I also think we should start showing other people's votes again. Perhaps a reset of the voting system so we can try and stop the inflation without worrying about the 'old' way we did things. Start fresh with a new voting system where people need not apologize for their vote. That is another thread and another vote though. Ready for that yet?

6. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

   #6

   ooooohhhhhh. A half pointer out of left field. Good on ya but you are going to have to prove it to us! At least come up with a naming scheme to rival the 5 point system.

7. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

   #7

   I voted to keep the half-points. In fact, I would be thoroughly in favor of multiplying all the current scores / votes by 2, and going to an integer 1-10 scale.
   
   Because of the mental 'compression' we have on a 1-5 scale, a vote of a 3 or lower gets filed away in our minds as insulting or inferior, when this is clearly not the purpose of having the scale at all. A 6 on a scale of 1-10, while objectively just as bad, has some mental padding between the truly abysmal 2s and 3s.
   
   Unfortunately, the real issue has very little to do with labels as much as it has to do with the current overload of the voting function - So long as we have one group of people voting on an objects usefulness to a DM, another group voting on its artistic merit, and still others voting on things such as whether or not they'd like their characters in a game to get one, voting is going to be morked up.

8. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

   #8

   morked :)

9. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

   #9

   I agree with Siren.
   
   The issue isn't the point system. The issue is the voters and no matter what you (or MoonHunter) do; everyone will keep voting on their own premises, be it Old John (92) or Timmy the Lad (12).
   
   1-5 doesn't do the subs justice. There are so many nuances that come into play, I cannot for the life of me truthfully say one 4 is like another 4. Half points (or, as Siren says 1-10) helps me clarify that nuance.
   
   Please noble sirs, let the half pointers (or 1-10) remain!

10. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #10

    I agree with AG and Siren on this one.  I've wanted to give some subs a 4.75 myself - close but not quite!
    
    
    

11. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #11

    Really?
    
    Then you would have been really upset if I suggested a thumbs up thumbs down like Siskel and Ebert!
    
    I just want to eliminate the inherit extra complexity of 5 extra ratings.
    
    I absolutely understand that some subs you want to give that little extra nudge, I did yesterday, but is it necessary? Really?
    
    The AF used to have a 9 scale and moved to a 5. Most popular sites that thrive on ratings use a 5 star system. I think hotornot is one of the few that has a 10 scale. Can that many sites be far off with all the money and research available for their business model? If a 10 rating system made more sense, they would use it. What they rate isn't that important but how they rate is almost universal, no?
    
    An almost 5 is still a 4. All 4s are not created equal. Since everybody has a different personal scale they are rating on, why do we have to go into .5 detail for a system that is overly arbitrary already? Cut the fat and make it simple.
    
    Bad
    Ok
    Good
    Excellent
    AWESOME!
    
    Where before somebody might vote between a 3.5 and a 4.5, now it is a 4, plain and simple. Regardless of the personal system you use, you are more likely to get a more standard vote for the same submission than before.
    
    Bang. No debate, it just is. If you really like the sub but it is not quite a 5 then give it a 4 and favorite it, HoH it, add some suggested to it and give it a good comment. A post doesn't need a 4, 4.5 or a 5 to be a good post but that is sort of where we are right now.
    
    The base level 3 is a GOOD POST. By adding all the extra levels that fact gets diluted and a 4 turns into a GOOD POST with a 4.5 being the new 4, a 5 is now less poignant because of all the 4.5s so it is easier to make that jump to the 5.
    
    With the 5 point system you make a committment with that 5 vote. Three isn't so far away anymore that it can start being used correctly again. Nobody would have issues of having a 4 instead of a 4.5 and if they did get a 4+ rating then they know they have some 5s in there.
    
    The voting system needs to be reset so that a 3 gets back to being a good submission. That is the overall reason for this suggestion.

12. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #12

    I agree completely and irrevocably with Siren, AG, and val.
    
    I'll come up with the perfect 'naming scheme' if you like, this weekend.  :)

13. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #13

    I have been brow beaten and I have seen the light. We shall keep the .5 system but we shall rename each vote to match better with what they should represent.
    
    Everybody who voted against me on this will loose 1000xp but I am not bitter at all. I am happy to bow to your overwhelming forces. Actually, make that a loss of 1500xp.
    
    (For those not there, we had a large chat session where my reasoning, while not demolished, was overrun by sheer force of will and numbers. I could not withstand the onslaught.)

14. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #14

    Hey strolen. (hey all, in fact)
    
    I know i haven't been active recently but i have an idea that might work. Forget the scale system. ignore the scale. Think more of the thumbs up/thumbs down system that strolen suggested.
    
    Use a similar system to XP. you earn it by getting good votes, and you spend it to give good votes.
    
    In the same way that by gaining experience you gain more votes per day, you give a post a thumbs up or a thumbs down as many times as you want but it costs you. Your experience goes down. Or something.
    
    That way, you only vote five times if the piece is really worth it to you.
    
    If you want to grade it, you could even say that the first thumb is free, and it gets more expansive as you go. (so that good but average posts are not left with no votes.)
    
    No guidelines besides: What is that post's value to YOU.
    
    This is a far more realistic rating. No fuss over the presentation, the grammar, the spelling. Just VALUE. This is why voting has to cost you something.
    
    just an idea...

15. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #15

    Hey Dark Dragon
    
    My concern with having a cost to vote is that votes are infrequent enough as it is.
    
    I've been thinking that perhaps in order to submit a sub, you need to vote at least once that day :P
    

16. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #16

    I have to echo Val here, putting a cost on votes is going to cut into people's already limited voting. People won't even delete a double post because it causes them -3 XP.

17. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #17

    This would be my over-simplified version. I may do a fancy-shmancy one too.
    
    1.    No
    1.5  Glimmer of hope
    2.    Not bad.
    2.5  Not bad at all!
    3.  Good stuff.
    3.5  Hey, that's a neat idea!
    4.  Very good!
    4.5  Excellent!
    5.    Memorable and amazing!
    
    Then again, that's nothing new.  Sigh.

18. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #18

    The definitions have to generalized enough to cover all the different voting spectrums yet specific enough to tell somebody a 3 is NOT a 5 in anybody's world or in anybody's rating system.
    
    We will need ther fancy shmancy ones.
    
    

19. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #19

    dark_dragon's thought tickles me in a way.
    
    Maybe not for main subs....but there is something there that has my spider senses going thinking there is a modified use of that.
    
    I must sleep on that and see what the morning brings.

20. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #20

    If you have to vote once a day to post, well, then I will never post here again.
    
    I don't have the time to vote once a day anymore.
    
    Yeah, I noticed it was a joke, but as they say: All jokes are based on a grain of truth.

21. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #21

    I just have to add:
    
    While there is nothing wrong with your arguments Strolen, I am simply just not won over.
    
    In the olden days, when 1-5 without decimals ruled the day, I felt frustrated and ill at ease. The decimals were a huge addition that really made my day.

22. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #22

    Topic wandering warning - and yes its my fault...
    
    Hello AG!
    
    I didn't say once per day, only once on the date that you post. Once per day commenting is obviously not reasonable - but might be worth a 'badge' in a new system :)
    
    My reason for this suggestion is why do we post here? My thoughts were that it was to share ideas with others and to obtain feedback on what we have submitted.
    
    To only submit without providing feedback in turn seems to be contrary to the spirit of the site, though to be honest, I would never want commenting to be required - then you would get into the "Nice Sub" comment without details.
    
    Now I'm not saying I'm any paragon of perfection here - many of my comments are simply of the form "Nice Job" since I could not think of anything at the time to improve the sub. I am trying to do better lately though.
    
    I'll say where I'm coming from here - I generally spend much more then an hour on each of my submissions - most certainly too much time.  I overspent on my recent sub At the Foot of the World and recieved only 3 comments on it.  That put me into a bit of a snit which is why I have not posted very much as of late.
    
    I'm starting to warm up again the whole writing bug again, but as a feedback junkie, I'd like to see comments spurred somehow :)
    
    
    
    
    
    

23. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #23

    Ah, that makes sense. Yes, I can see where you come from, and yes, I will keep from wandering too far off topic.
    
    Suffice to say that I feel we should reward feedback in other ways than xp. Personally I don't care diddly squat about experience points and levels, but I know that it makes some users tick (which is great).
    
    Instead of limiting people who do not vote, let us reward the ones that do. Making the users' lives miserable is hardly a way to boost our community's popularity.
    
    Perhaps we could use a small amount of the donated money and reward the user of the year?
    
    Back on track: I still favour decimals.

24. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #24

    Re: Feedback and voting: A slap on the back can make users go a long way, just as a slap in the face can make them leave. We've seen that time and time again. I don't mean we should all hand out 5 swords and say "GREAT!", what I do say is this: If we all keep in mind that feedback, any feedback as long as it is precise and polite, will keep users around for a long, long time.
    
    While we all hover around our own sub expecting approval and praise, remember that others do the same. It is as easy as that. Now tell it to all those that do not vote.
    
    :)
    
    (Okay, far off topic. I like it!)

25. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #25

    Rough Draft
    
    1 - Find a new hobby
    1.5 - Poorly presented or just a bad idea.
    2- Shows some promise, but needs some work.
    2.5- ‘Interesting’ is such a loaded word, but actually applies in this case.
    3.- Can really be useful. Bring it out some more!
    3.5 - Just wait until I spring this on the group! But first, a few questions...
    4. -This stands out. Memorable! I will find a way to use it!
    4.5- You really outdid yourself. Great work!
    5.- You should do this for a living!

26. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #26

    I like :up:

27. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #27

    No likey. Leaves too much interpretation with the wording.
    
    This should be the base set to work off of.
    
    1 = Needs some serious work - not ready for public consumption
    2 = OK idea but flawed. Has a few issues but it can still be useable by some
    3 = Good solid idea. Nothing fancy, just a great, useable, quality submission
    4 = Sweet idea with some artistic flair or increased usefulness that really set it apart.
    5 = Exceptional Submission. Extremely useable, well written, and organized.
    
    Need to drop any words that are ambiguous and that don't specifically state what we are expecting. Because there are definitely expectations for what a vote means.
    
    The baseline, obviously, should be 3 and that is probably the most important vote description that is needed.
    
    "Can really be useful. Bring it out some more!" can be applied to pretty much anything below a 4.  A 1.5 could really be useful with a gem of an idea if it was brought out some more.
    
    Not to pick, but from the old voting descriptions to these new ones that are pretty close to final, you really have to microanalyze what you are saying and assume some interpretations. Nothing will be perfect but we really have to close in on a very solid definition and that list doesn't really do it.
    
    

28. Re: Voting with no 1/2 swords?

    #28

    I was looking to fill in the x.5 entries, but I think its is unnecessary - one can easily look at the two bracketing numbers to get the gist of what should go there.
    
    

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