Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

1. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

   #1

   Ah, how I have come to love that sense of accomplishment and victory that I get when I pull the wool over the eyes of a clever player character. What DM Triumphs have you had?
   
   Some of mine:
   1. Finally killing an incredibly powerful, lucky, annoying player's character.
   2. Finally achieving a TPK (Total Party Kill)
   3. Finally achieving a TPK using only traps
   4. Finally working out how to make it so that damn wizard doesn't steal the spotlight all the damn time.

2. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

   #2

   Tell me how would one go about doing that fourth one? ya Know Just incase!!!

3. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

   #3

   Simple.
   
   I had the room under an anti-magic field, with a beholder centering it's special anti-magic eye on the wizard, and the wizard was held down by the imps he summoned from the Inferno on accident.
   
   Another time, I just had creatures that were completely invulnerable to magic.
   
   Those are the only two times I managed to do it.

4. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

   #4

   Very good I applaud you! would there be any way to minipulate them with out the use of stronger magic or using some kind of anti- magic?

5. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

   #5

   Well....
   You could have a trap that sprang down from above that caught only the mage, somehow.
   Like a net that everyone else jumped out of the way of, and then the room was swarmed with monsters so that they didn't have time to free the wizard.

6. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

   #6

   ya, the wizards are too good. I don't DM, but i refuse to be a mage as its cheap. My DM has never been able to get rid of my parties wizard. Well, he did by accident. I was a black knight, and he put me in a trap that I suddenly lost all sense of judgement. Since I hated the wizard, I used that "Lack" of judgement and ran my own teammante through!

7. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

   #7

   Yes but what would keep him from uttering a incantation? I was thinking more along the lines of dropping him some incredibly cold liquid that would freeze immediatly making it impossible to move.

8. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

   #8

   then you use my way, someone from his opwn team stabs him in the back. No time to react.

9. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

   #9

   Well, in my particular game world, you have to have a special skill to cast spells without hand motions.

10. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #10

    Ohh You see I didn't know that!!! oh well if he is frozen then chances are her won't beable to bove his hands any how!!!! (much less his mouth) Well I an Tired time for me to go to bed Night!!!

11. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #11

    GM's Don't "triumph" when they kill off all the PC's, they just piss off their friends. The wizards aren't the problem, the free reign the GM gives them is. Playing games is about having fun, not competion. If you want to compete, Go buy some gamer crack, that would be Magic the gathering, or gamer heroin, that would be Everquest. Role playing isn't about players vrs the game master, nobody "wins", everyone is supposed to be having fun.
    
    If you feel the party wizard is getting all the spot light, find out why the gm is giving him so much leeway and tell him you'd like some action too. Wizards have arcane spells, but jack for health, A posionous mist would take them out first, then the fighters will have to save thier butts. There are a million more ways to curb a wizard's power than just tossing an anti-magic field in front of him. How powerless would a fighter feel if he walked into a room and all his weapons were suddenly made of smoke?
    
    Wizards have restrictions like every other character, if they aren't being followed, see what's being done to bring them down another way, or what's being done to bring your character up to thier level. Mind you, if you pick a specality, like long range posion attacks, you've limited what the GM can do to help you out.

12. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #12

    Big meanie.

13. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #13

    we are talking about PC's that get a little big for their boots!

14. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #14

    PC's only get as big as the boots you give them. Which makes for an interesting segway into the only time I HAD to kill a PC.
    
    I'd started an Earthdwan campaign with soem friends at college and had been playing for a few months when one of them let this guy tag along to the game. Now this is a guy I'd seen around school, but he just gave me that weird vibe, ya know, that 'He frenches his pet possum' kinda weird guy vibe. That vibe was why I hadn't invited him to come play. But now he was at my house and wanted to get involved, and I didn't want to be rude, so we whipped him up a character.
    
    Every time this guy would open his mouth, something stupid would come out. He would just giggle this dorky cackle and try to steal petty stuff from the party members. Just an annoyance. We tried letting the party sort themselves out, but it didn't work. Finally, he stepped on MY toes, my GM toes, in the middle of a bar fight he'd started. He just says "I pull a rock out of my shoe and throw it at the troll!"
    
    What? Do you NORMALLY walk around with rocks in your shoes? Did you expect one to suddenly appear because you wanted it to? NO! just NO!
    
    Next game session, he ended up trapped inside an underground chapel in a room full of alien eggs and facehuggers. Like the ones from the Aliens movies.A cave in seperated him from the rest of the party, so there was nothing they could do to save him. Sniff, sniff.
    
    Remember, you, as GM, are GOD in every way the PCs are concerned. You can always tell them NO! and they just have to sit there and suck eggs. You control all the power. Don't let them play a character you haven't seen, they're probally trying to get away with something. If they have something that's getting out of hand, take it away from them. Items can be stolen/destroyed/damaged, Spells can produce side effects, abilites can be lost through divine intervention or illness. Or the best revenge of all, Make a copy of the party, The evil twin version of them, and watch as they destroy each other. When they players find themselves on even ground, they tend feel like they're being picked on. It's great.

15. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #15

    Well thank you, Agar, I find your ideas enlightening and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
    
    I just don't want to abuse my godly DM power.
    
    You're still a big meanie, ya' big mean-head.

16. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #16

    :P

17. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #17

    There's a difference between abusing your godly powers and USING them. It isn't a crime to put forward something that the players can't handle once and a while....just be sure that you either have a sound reason or a possible solution for it.
    
    For exmple, my party recently tried to go upstairs in a haunted mansion before they found a pair of items on the current floor. My solution was to put a full fledged vampire in the way with a small army of undead. It was enough to discourage them from going up just then. I eventually brought a friendly high powered charater in to take it (and most of it's undead army) out without them (they were only level one) they were quite ready to try to scrounge up the proper materials to get rid of it.
    
    I guess the point is that the godly powers of the DM are hard to abuse if they are used intelligently and infrequently. Hmm, definately infrequently. Beside, if the players find a way to get around said problem/situation without your help or the help of a munchkin then there probably isn't much you can do to stop them short of a convention of ancient wyrms.

18. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #18

    When I run a silly game, it is always in a bar I made up that is just insane. And no, I haven't read Calahan's cross time sallon, or whatever! :evil:
    
    Anyway, The players alway invariably get drunk and try to pick a fight. One guy was a werewolf and told me "I find the biggest guy in the place and say somthin' about his mother." The biggest guy in the place was a dragon out for a night with his buddies. They all dogpiled on the werewolf. The janitor sponged (literally) up the were wolf and threw him out.

19. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #19

    Hey! You dirty slassraffs! What'd you say about my intelligence?!
    
    Nevermind.

20. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #20

    You should damn well read the Callahan books. They is good. Heee....

21. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #21

    I have made 2 players cry in my time. The first was a high level mage that found he was unable to cross a moat of mercury using traveling spells. So, being the brilliant mage that he was, he decided to touch the mercury. Needing only a roll of 1 to fail his save, he did so and died. Crying, I gave him a second chance to change his mind, but he touched it again and rolled another 1.
    
    The second occurance came when the characters walked into the lair of a new born dragon. It was hungry and attacked immediately. landing in between them, the dragon began trying to eat them. Most of the players wisely used the columns within the great hall as defense. One of them, though, decided to hold his ground, and, with a devastating roll I meted out enough damage to rip his arm off. Needless to say he wept and shredded his character sheet. Oh yeah, and we also never played with him again (by his choice).

22. I was going to post

    #22

    But Agar pretty much posted everything I was going to say. Agar and I are in violent agreement.
    
    ###########
    
    I just wrote about 600 words of rant, that I have just pulled off this post. It was uncomplementry about gamers so focused on winning that they lose sight of a few things, such as fun for everyone.
    
    I have pulled it. I will edit it and try to make it palitable and post it again.

23. re:Strom

    #23

    Both of those players failed their wis check.
    
    The only reason for a character to die is extreme player stupidity (orbviously they want their character to die). Even then, you can give them a chance.
    
    
    
    Introducing new characters into a game can throw every plotline, story arc, and even tactical adventure area (i.e. dungeon). If the characters are high enough level, they would never bring along a newbie... especially in a dungeon designed for high level characters.
    
    Have you ever been the first level character among the group of 14+ levels? Not a fun experience.
    
    What about story lines and clues the character knows? What about groups that were geased. Why would anyone else join them on the insane quest? There are dozens of complications to casusal character death.
    
    
    Now in Strom's case, these characters just needed to die... so their players could be penalized for that level of stupidity.

24. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #24

    What?
    
    No massive speech about how I'm totally wrong and should change my ways?
    The way I see it, you are the Game Master, and, thus, it is your job to make sure that the players don't stride through every challenge like it was a merry stroll through a dewey meadow. If doing so includes occasionally showing the players that they are not Unconquerable Unkillable Forces of Heroic-ness and Stuff by killing them, then I'm all for it.

25. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #25

    I think killing a PC is something which should not be undertaken lightly or frequently. Imagine how it would be if the game were taking place in real life: the fellow characters, who'd been adventuring with the deceased for many years suddenly lose a great friend and adventuring companion. Any new character who takes the place of the dead one is never going to be a perfect replacement. Things will never be the same.
    
    This state of affairs can only be brought about if the characters are really well-developed and have relationships between them forged from many sessions of roleplaying. This necessitates long-lived PCs who aren't killed too often.
    
    Nevertheless it is desirable to let the PCs know they are living a dangerous life as adventurers. If they always survive when they enter places "from which no-one has ever come out alive" they'll get complacent and cease to believe in the game. The occasional character-death helps to dispell this feeling, and would also be productive for character development: the characters would have to react and adapt to the loss of their companion.
    
    The player whose character has been killed will of course be peeved. They will almost certainly want the same sort of character back so that they can play the same person under a different name and they'll expect over the course of the next few sessions to pick up some magical items similar to those owned by the deceased (if not taking all the same ones from the deceased's corpse). This must be discouraged, as it causes disbelief. The character has died, but they don't have to suffer the loss because there's a virtual clone willing to take over.
    
    Try instead to encourage players to develop completely different characters after their original ones die off. This will give the game a feeling of reality as everyone experiences a sense of loss, and it will lead to their characters being more like unique, real people than mass-produced fantasy archetypes.

26. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #26

    The only time I ever had a Total Party Kill was when our favorite DM was playing in my game. Whole adventure surrounded the infiltration of an elemental temple to the new cult of worshippers that were looking to get their water elemental god back onto this plain, and had nearly succeeded so there was a great presence of the god in this world, but not fully incarnate yet.
    
    Basically they get to the worshipping well of the elementalists and our usual DM starts some chanting and summoning over this well, much to the annoyance of the other characters who only slightly tried to stop him because it was a fairly comical show. Him, a thief if memory serves, standing at the edge of the holy elemental well waving his hands trying to summon the elemental.
    
    So a role of the dice determined their fate and an explosion of water came from the depths of the well with such power and fury that it was impossible for them to make any headway or cast any spells. Any thought of escape was squashed when the elemental god boomed in his gurgly bass drumming voice, "Why have you summoned me?"
    
    I let them squirm a little bit but soon after I just sort of said, "Are you REALLY SURE that is what you wanted to do?"
    
    No sense destroying the entire campaign because of it but it did teach them a valuable lesson...and was a fun story to tell about character deaths.

27. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #27

    I didn't say I killed them all the time.
    I think it's good once in a while to put em' in their place.

28. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #28

    Isn't that kind of what everyone else has been saying?
    
    I killed a player once. The fellow was one of those who didn't understand that you shouldn't attempt to kill every NPC you meet. Unfortunately, the polymorphed gold dragon did not take kindly to his attentions.

29. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #29

    If we're all saying the same thing, why are we debating so much?

30. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #30

    I think we just do that.

31. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #31

    There is a vast difference between making a game challenging and making it impossible. GM's who strive to kill off every player, every session, are killjoys who have no sense of fun. GM's who let the players have a free hand and wade through the corpses of dragons to acheive godhood in a week are pushovers will no sense of challenge. The players need to feel the risks, need to take the damage, need to feel like they're doing something that matters, something only they can do, and something they might not make it out alive from.
    
    Rough 'em up, please. Take away the stuff they take for granted, their magic items, their followers, their abilities, their health, their limbs. And sometimes, their life. Life, even in a fantasy game, was never meant to be easy. Make them work for it.

32. Threshold.

    #32

    I think what we are arguing about is the "threshold" of player character death and the reasons why the character died.
    
    1) For many of us, characters have "script immunity" or are basically unkillable. Most of the time, the players can easily succeed against the challanges thrown against them. Even if they screw up, the GM will scramble around and try to save them.
    
    2) Threshold is script immunity with exceptions. For many of us, characters must be "written out". A character's script immunity is revoked for the purpose of brining in a new character, that is "cool". There are times, we note that script immunity is off, letting the players know that in the climax... people can die.
    
    3) For others, the threshold is "Player stupidity". Sometimes, despite your best warning or advice, players pursue a course that is effectively suicidal. Thus they die if the dice determine it.
    
    3b) A variation on the above is the critial wierdness. PCs only die under crits or their own fumbles. Rare enough to keep PCs to keep them alive, punctuating the game with death.
    
    4) For others, the threshold is tactical interaction. Once the dice and game mechanics start flying, the character's life is upto the dice. Most challanges should be equal to the PCs, but most should be less, to ensure the continued survival of the players.
    
    5) For others, the PCs are the adversaries. You are the GM and they are competing against you. Characters die with regular frequency, as both sides have a duel of wits and dice for tactical advantages. The Threshold is tactical interaction, but the situation at the table is more like HackMaster and the two sides are gainst each other.
    
    6) For others, PCs are fodder for your godlike might. The Threshold is stepping into the situation. Munchkin GMs at their worst, or the occasional GM with self image issues.
    
    This forms a continumn from 1 to 6. Everyone is pretty much somewhere inbetween the death threshold 1 to 6. Every level, except the most extreme rank 1s, allow for PC injury and abuse.
    
    What I think is happening here is that we are not agreeing upon what is an acceptable threshold for PC death. Each of us have our own take.
    
    For examples. I am a 2.5 . PCs mostly have plot immunity, except at key times (climax of story arcs... they usually know when the kid gloves are off) and when they do something sooo stupid that I can not conviently save them.
    
    IMO: Ephemeralstability is a solid 1 and some change.
    
    IMO: Agar has been posting against range 5-6 and is probably a somewhere between 1-3, probably 2.
    
    IMO: Ria and Strom Solid 3s, while CP, I would bet is a 4.5, maybe 5
    
    You can post your own threshold and number. (pvt message me if you don't, to let me know how far off I am).
    
    Now you can see why we are arguing. We all have very different opinions on when and why PCs should die, and if anyone should be gloating over a TPK.

33. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #33

    I'm prolly closer to a 2.5. If I'm going to have characters get killed, I prefer it to be because of the plot, in which case it adds to the drama of the situation and increases the stakes, or because of their own stupidity, in which case they deserve it.

34. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #34

    What does IMO mean?

35. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #35

    Probably Internet-speak for "In my opinion". I'd place myself as more of a 2, because I think player death is sometimes necessary or even desirable (see earlier post) but has to be dealt with carefully. I think the threshold is determined by narrative imperative rather than random dice rolls or PCs "getting too big for their boots".
    
    ephe!

36. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #36

    a 2 is good for me, although I have 3 and 3b tendancies. I should try to maim my PCs more, they'd appreciate it. :twisted:

37. Triumph of the Dungeon Master!

    #37

    4.5 sounds like me.

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