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Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
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Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#1
Actually we could attribute it to the quest subjects themselves. The last one was a tough category. That is why I am always pushing for a theme like Sky or Ocean, it is so broad anyone can come up with something for it. Space subtype would be a nice one too.
We could attribute it to the active and quiet periods of the site itself... independent of the quests. (the last one was in that)
We could attribute it to the fact that it takes people a while to "gear up" for the quest. That is why most quest subs are either the first day or two OR the last few days.
We only get subs for a quest when people post subs for a quest. In fact the subs seem to be the only effective advertising for the quests.. as people seem to ignore those notices on the front page.
Have we not heard the phrase, "Strike while the Iron is Hot"? Or similar metaphor.
If people were in "quest mode", ready to do a directed submission because they just did one, we would have people:
a) more inclined to do one, because they were just doing it
b) people were already interested in the quest process. That would lead others into it.
c) people weren't whining and complaining about the quest... and we would just get on with it.
So now that we have a delay... we have to restart interest in the quest again. We have to get people interested in posting a focused post. Most annoyingly, people will have time to kvetch about why this and why that.. when if we just had posted up the next quest in line... they would not of had the time to bother with that.. they would of just been posting up the next post.
So... now you guys need to whip up some excitement and interest in the next quest. Or otherwise it will just fizzle and go luke warm.
Problems Concerning Complains:
I am really trying not to step on any toes here. I just want this to be a serious discussion concerning the way we conduct things around here. No need to be rude or angered. If we could discuss this as adults, I'd really appreciate that.
As we are talking about quests, I will spill my liver about stuff that bothers me about this site: We really need to take better care of those who enter the quests. By making too narrow categories and then exluding people, like EchoMirage in the NPC quest we only alienate users (his outed NPC has since gone and ranked among the best on the site with, amongst other things, 111 XP and 7 HoH). I know we forged the "3 day rule" for that, but I still had to say it one more time, because the very spirit that made that happen resides here still.
As for complains: they aren't a sign of too few quests or whining users. Complains will always come. The more complains, the more errors there are. The client is always right (meaning we take everyone seriously and make them feel welcome... even when they are wrong). While some people, like me and Moon, do not hesitate to complain, other people are timid (and sometimes approach opinionated people, like Strolen and me, asking for help). That is only natural. Hell, back in the day when MoonHunter and I gouged each others eyes out, I was approached by intimidated Citadellians asking for my aid. Because they did not dare complain. Because it is basically like this:
You just DON'T complain at the Citadel. Not unless you want a collective head butt from the admins. Sorry guys, but we are all really bad at receiving complains.
Why do you think some companies deliver excellent service? It is NOT because taking care of clients and their concerns is bad. That much I can reveal. And why do you think Stalin and Hitler were so hated? To dismiss feedback is an error in itself. An error that is all too often committed on this site. Drowning complains in new quests will not help. A "I want to deliver a complaint" link might help, as it withdraws the unpleasantness from the quest itself. I think that is a good solution actually. Much better than sighing about "whining and complaining".
Sorry for ranting about this, but as I read MoonHunter's comment I found his wording such as "whining and complaining" unsettling.
What I think:
-Users DO NOT whine and complain!
-Users CARE about the site!
Otherwise they wouldn't have posted in the first place, no matter how bad their sub might be. They care enough to be here, and if we don't get our act straight and realize that we will never get to the size we wish to be.
-Users CARE about their own contributions.
Look in the guest and user listing, and you will soon realize that ;)
Thus, by telling the users they "whine and complain", or something like that, we really tell them that we, the admins, are arrogant and condescending fellows who do not take them seriously. It might even feel like we don't care whether they exist at the site or not.
This is what I feel about all of this. Thus, when I @!#$ed up like I did a little while ago (dunno if all of you noticed), I was quick to beg forgiveness. My stupid action wasn't even intentional, but I asked forgiveness anyhow. Perhaps it was enough. I sure hope so.
1 satisfied customer will tell 2 people about the site. 1 angered customer will tell 10 people about the site.
Guess what m0s0g told those he met about our site? What if his best friend could have been a new Murometz or Iain? Now we'll never know.
(Reference: Sales theory. My SO is a saleswoman).
So, to include some funny stuff to make everyone relax a little: When I unintentionally made a fool out of myself by not reading what kind of thread I was in, and then posting something that REALLY made me look like an arse, Strolen flayed me alive. He took my skin and boiled my nuts. He put a sledge hammer to my every knuckle and stuck needles in my eyes. Guess that will make you all smile, huh? :p
But I like to pretend that I know what he really tried to do. He tried to make the bad attitute of his admins go away. So, we are great and we post great stuff and ideally we should stay, but that bad admin behaviour is like cancer and the Citadel is sick.
Let us invent a cure for cancer.
Please. -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#2I am really trying not to step on any toes here. I just want this to be a serious discussion concerning the way we conduct things around here. No need to be rude or angered. If we could discuss this as adults, I'd really appreciate that.
I am going to hold you to that.
As we are talking about quests, I will spill my liver about stuff that bothers me about this site: We really need to take better care of those who enter the quests. By making too narrow categories and then exluding people, like EchoMirage in the NPC quest we only alienate users (his outed NPC has since gone and ranked among the best on the site with, amongst other things, 111 XP and 7 HoH). I know we forged the "3 day rule" for that, but I still had to say it one more time, because the very spirit that made that happen resides here still.
Okay: So durring the next Quest, I can post anything up in the quest category... including things that do not match either the category OR what the quest is about.. and I get the extra experience AND get to be voted on in the quest. That is what you just said right, in principle.
We play games and they don't have rules.. just to make people feel better? (oh you can take five strikes, but you can't) So we are in pre-school (or early elementry school) now or are we grown ups? Games have rules. A quest is a game with rules. While we play games to have fun, so sometimes we bend them a little... but in the end.. we sometimes still kill the character. Games are fun because you "compete" against the system and still are triumphant.
So if games don't have rules are they games?
As for the Narrow category... Well yes, I guess just one subtype might be narrow (and to admit, Legends/ Historical is a tough category to write for). So choose Melee weapons OR Forest.
Remember: part of the reason we have quests or directed postings is to fill in categories that are blank or low in number. Do we really need another 35 magic melee weapons?
(aside: War as a category can be bad. We are asking for a bunch of emotionally charged posts and reactions to posts given the global tensions and certain countries actions. People, someone is going to take some post the wrong way.. and it will get messy).
As for complaints: they aren't a sign of too few quests or whining users. Complains will always come.
and did.
The more complains, the more errors there are.
Untrue, but if that is your perception? How is that? Can you explain that?
"whining and complaining" unsettling.
The whinning and complaining that occured that bothered me was the "sour grapes" certain users were venting because there sub was either excluded OR did not score properly well or that there favorite didn't make it.
What I think:
-Users DO NOT whine and complain!
yes they do... but that is just natural. (I want more EPs! I want a higher Rating! Why didn't you vote higher for me?.. ) Admins do it too (and about the exact same things). And before you think I am going too far, we can go with what we as gamers normally whine and complain about (hmmm eps, better scores, more magic items... really not that different really).
-Users CARE about the site!
Never said they didn't. If they didn't care, they wouldn't have enough motivation to whine and complain.
-Users CARE about their own contributions.
And? Don't see the point to that one, other than they want their submission to be voted 5, laurelled, and given HoHs.
Thus, by telling the users they "whine and complain", or something like that, we really tell them that we, the admins, are arrogant and condescending fellows who do not take them seriously. It might even feel like we don't care whether they exist at the site or not.
And that complaint about whining and complaining was in the admin section FOR THE ADMINS. Nobody here is ever advocating that we tell the pulbic users or even non admins that comment. Unless you were going to? Was anyone?
And if you are complaining about us doing/ saying "Politically incorrect things", Gee Aren't you the one that created "The backyard of admin fury! ". If what we say in the ADMIN FORUM is for "general relase", then we should all be banned for posting in that thread.. and saying that users were annoying.
Oh wait. We did. We complained about users. Are you telling me that we took those submissions and TOLD USERS OUTSIDE THE ADMIN CIRCLE about those posts? I REALLY HOPE THE HELL NOT.
And unless they submit, comment, or vote, many of those users might as well be web spiders. Sure we do some good. But are they part of the community.? To be honest, the only people I truly care about here are the people that submit, comment, or vote - i.e. part of our community. I will work with any of them, even the ones that annoy me. The rest are being helped with our information as public service. (This sub-topic is best taken off thread later....)
This is what I feel about all of this. Thus, when I @!#$ed up like I did a little while ago (dunno if all of you noticed), I as quick to beg forgiveness.
If you had thought about what you had done before you did it.. and acted like the calm and ration adult you proport, then it never would of happened.
Re: Sales theory.
People will say what people will say. It is their choice to feel the ways they want to and very little you can do (also part of sales theory) will actually change their opinion. That said, we do try hard to make this place work. We try to play nicely. Even in a company/ place/ site with perfect customer service and customer retention programs and focus groups, a certain percentage of people are still going to react negatively... no matter what you do. All they need to do is feel the slightest bit put upon, even if (the company/ group) did everything right and did nothing wrong, they will still go off on the company/ group/ site/ store.
And true one of Mo0o0gs friends could of been the next Murometz. However, they could of been the next Dimensification or chilled too. Never know what will come out of that box of chocolates we call life.
>>>>>
To be honest, the only problem with the admins here is that we do so little. Mostly, we sit around and occasionally post. While nothing wrong with some of that, we do little site maintance. When was the last time you corrected something in someones post (like a spelling error or such)? When was the last time you commented upon the In works - needs advice section? (Even I don't do that very often.) We seldom clean up links, link errors, make sure that subs are linked to everything they should be linked to, update freetext, make sure that subs are codes by subtypes correctly, and really try to help users (well we do that occasionally via comments on posts). Some of you do this occasinally, but really not very often. Sure admins do more? yes. Should admins be trying to bring new members here, yes. Are we going to force admins to do any of this, I truly hope not. (I just wish they would do it of their own accord more often.)
(Aside: Do you know that Cheka does not know how to make a codex or add things to it? We had to explain it to him very recently. What more can we do if active functional members can't work the site?)
So people can complain. Let them. Let them complain, whine, kvetch, and the whole 9 yards. That means they are involved. However, they also need to realize that we (admins and other members of the community) are going to respond. And while we will try to play nicely with them, for some, no matter what we do and how nice we are and how much we accomidate them, some of them are going to take it the wrong way. (Why did you delete my post?)
Their emotions are their choice. Unless you have a mind control device, they are going to feel what they want to feel. -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#3I don't think I've ever jumped on someone for complaining. I either fixed the problem or asked someone else to if I couldn't. Of course, I haven't had many complaints to deal with; I have a suspicion that a lot of people don't know I'm an admin (which is my own fault and goes back to what Moon was saying about admins not doing much.) -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#4AG:
As we are talking about quests, I will spill my liver about stuff that bothers me about this site: We really need to take better care of those who enter the quests. By making too narrow categories and then exluding people, like EchoMirage in the NPC quest we only alienate users (his outed NPC has since gone and ranked among the best on the site with, amongst other things, 111 XP and 7 HoH). I know we forged the "3 day rule" for that, but I still had to say it one more time, because the very spirit that made that happen resides here still.
Moon:
Okay: So durring the next Quest, I can post anything up in the quest category... including things that do not match either the category OR what the quest is about.. and I get the extra experience AND get to be voted on in the quest. That is what you just said right, in principle.
We play games and they don't have rules.. just to make people feel better? (oh you can take five strikes, but you can't) So we are in pre-school (or early elementry school) now or are we grown ups? Games have rules. A quest is a game with rules. While we play games to have fun, so sometimes we bend them a little... but in the end.. we sometimes still kill the character. Games are fun because you "compete" against the system and still are triumphant.
So if games don't have rules are they games?
Reply:
You know what I meant. Besides we created the three day rule for correcting misunderstandings. I doubt people would go off the mark like that anyway. I believe everyone are doing their best to create something worthwhile for the quests. We should honour that.
*************
As for the Narrow category... Well yes, I guess just one subtype might be narrow (and to admit, Legends/ Historical is a tough category to write for). So choose Melee weapons OR Forest.
Remember: part of the reason we have quests or directed postings is to fill in categories that are blank or low in number. Do we really need another 35 magic melee weapons?
(aside: War as a category can be bad. We are asking for a bunch of emotionally charged posts and reactions to posts given the global tensions and certain countries actions. People, someone is going to take some post the wrong way.. and it will get messy).
Reply:
Okay. Fair enough. You made your point. I do not agree to the War comment. I believe bad war submissions will earn bad votes and lose the quest. It takes care of itself. I believe we are mature enough to write about war. War is an important part of roleplaying, and I have absolute faith in Murometz’s abilities. I think he will see us safely through this, should he opt for the War quest. (It is his call in the end after all. He did not commit himself to anything in the chat).
*************
AG:
As for complaints: they aren't a sign of too few quests or whining users. Complains will always come.
Moon:
and did.
Reply:
No comment.
*************
AG:
The more complains, the more errors there are.
Moon:
Untrue, but if that is your perception? How is that? Can you explain that?
Reply:
You claim to know the truth. I do not. I believe everyone's perspective of truth is their own and independent of the objective truth. Indeed, I doubt that there even is an universal objective truth. Right and wrong is dependent on person, culture and so on. This is a subject that is much debated in university lawyer textbooks.
But to reply to your question: As everyone's truth is personal, their complaints are personal as well. You and I are miles apart in mindset and personality, which I would guess you can agree to. Therefore what we would react to differs as well. If we aim to succeed as a site, I believe we need to take everyone seriously, including you and me.
*************
AG:
"whining and complaining" unsettling.
Moon:
The whinning and complaining that occured that bothered me was the "sour grapes" certain users were venting because there sub was either excluded OR did not score properly well or that there favorite didn't make it.
Reply:
Sour grapes are other peoples' opinions that you do not approve of. That you find in some way not to your liking. Still, those people felt that their "sour grapes" were real enough. We should respect that.
*************
AG:
What I think:
-Users DO NOT whine and complain!
Moon:
yes they do... but that is just natural. (I want more EPs! I want a higher Rating! Why didn't you vote higher for me?.. ) Admins do it too (and about the exact same things). And before you think I am going too far, we can go with what we as gamers normally whine and complain about (hmmm eps, better scores, more magic items... really not that different really).
Reply:
You misunderstand. Users do not whine and complaint. They worry about things that are not to their liking. We need to listen to them, and by putting negative labels on their worries we do exactly the opposite. We need to give service to the users. We need to think things through before passing judgment. In effect we sometimes think "Bah, this is stupid" and flame whoever said anything. This is what I hope people will reflect about. This is my worry.
*************
AG:
-Users CARE about the site!
Moon:
Never said they didn't. If they didn't care, they wouldn't have enough motivation to whine and complain.
Reply:
No comment.
*************
AG:
-Users CARE about their own contributions.
Moon:
And? Don't see the point to that one, other than they want their submission to be voted 5, laurelled, and given HoHs.
Reply:
Ah, I might have been unclear as to my intentions with this post. I want the site to grow. I feel we, the “obnoxious admins” :p, hinder it from growing. Our good posts also help it growing, and at the end of the day I believe we do more good than harm.
*************
AG:
Thus, by telling the users they "whine and complain", or something like that, we really tell them that we, the admins, are arrogant and condescending fellows who do not take them seriously. It might even feel like we don't care whether they exist at the site or not.
Moon:
And that complaint about whining and complaining was in the admin section FOR THE ADMINS. Nobody here is ever advocating that we tell the pulbic users or even non admins that comment. Unless you were going to? Was anyone?
And if you are complaining about us doing/ saying "Politically incorrect things", Gee Aren't you the one that created "The backyard of admin fury! ". If what we say in the ADMIN FORUM is for "general relase", then we should all be banned for posting in that thread.. and saying that users were annoying.
Oh wait. We did. We complained about users. Are you telling me that we took those submissions and TOLD USERS OUTSIDE THE ADMIN CIRCLE about those posts? I REALLY HOPE THE HELL NOT.
And unless they submit, comment, or vote, many of those users might as well be web spiders. Sure we do some good. But are they part of the community.? To be honest, the only people I truly care about here are the people that submit, comment, or vote - i.e. part of our community. I will work with any of them, even the ones that annoy me. The rest are being helped with our information as public service. (This sub-topic is best taken off thread later....)
Reply:
Oh my. This one was out there. Have a caramel and relax Moon. As I initially stated I wanted an adult conversation. This, from my cultural and personal perspective, was an outburst better left forgotten.
*************
AG:
This is what I feel about all of this. Thus, when I @!#$ed up like I did a little while ago (dunno if all of you noticed), I as quick to beg forgiveness.
Moon:
If you had thought about what you had done before you did it.. and acted like the calm and ration adult you proport, then it never would of happened.
Reply:
And what are you insinuating here Moon? That adults never make mistakes?
*************
Moon:
Re: Sales theory.
People will say what people will say. It is their choice to feel the ways they want to and very little you can do (also part of sales theory) will actually change their opinion.
Reply:
… Very few salesmen I know of give up that easily. I am trying to sell the site. Good behaviour, on my part as well as on yours, should be within reach.
Moon:
That said, we do try hard to make this place work. We try to play nicely. Even in a company/ place/ site with perfect customer service and customer retention programs and focus groups, a certain percentage of people are still going to react negatively... no matter what you do. All they need to do is feel the slightest bit put upon, even if (the company/ group) did everything right and did nothing wrong, they will still go off on the company/ group/ site/ store.
And true one of Mo0o0gs friends could of been the next Murometz. However, they could of been the next Dimensification or chilled too. Never know what will come out of that box of chocolates we call life.
Reply:
Yes. You have a point there.
>>>>>
Moon:
To be honest, the only problem with the admins here is that we do so little. Mostly, we sit around and occasionally post. While nothing wrong with some of that, we do little site maintance. When was the last time you corrected something in someones post (like a spelling error or such)?
Reply:
Yesterday. I do stuff like that all the time. I have also been active in the bug hunting department lately. Manfred and I are good in this regard.
Moon:
When was the last time you commented upon the In works - needs advice section? (Even I don't do that very often.)
Reply:
Never. I have a family, a demanding job, friends and this site. I have to make priorities.
Moon:
We seldom clean up links, link errors, make sure that subs are linked to everything they should be linked to, update freetext, make sure that subs are codes by subtypes correctly, and really try to help users (well we do that occasionally via comments on posts). Some of you do this occasinally, but really not very often. Sure admins do more? yes. Should admins be trying to bring new members here, yes. Are we going to force admins to do any of this, I truly hope not. (I just wish they would do it of their own accord more often.)
(Aside: Do you know that Cheka does not know how to make a codex or add things to it? We had to explain it to him very recently. What more can we do if active functional members can't work the site?)
So people can complain. Let them. Let them complain, whine, kvetch, and the whole 9 yards. That means they are involved. However, they also need to realize that we (admins and other members of the community) are going to respond. And while we will try to play nicely with them, for some, no matter what we do and how nice we are and how much we accomidate them, some of them are going to take it the wrong way. (Why did you delete my post?)
Reply:
I have not deleted any of your posts. Not as I can recall. Ask Strolen for a more thorough answer. He has the truth in his database.
Moon:
Their emotions are their choice. Unless you have a mind control device, they are going to feel what they want to feel.
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Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#5
I don't think I've ever jumped on someone for complaining. I either fixed the problem or asked someone else to if I couldn't. Of course, I haven't had many complaints to deal with; I have a suspicion that a lot of people don't know I'm an admin (which is my own fault and goes back to what Moon was saying about admins not doing much.)
True. You have always been proper and correct. Even when I think you do not approve, you manage to maintain a polite and neutral tone. I wish I could be more like you in that regard. -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#6(Why did you delete my post?)
Reply:
I have not deleted any of your posts. Not as I can recall. Ask Strolen for a more thorough answer. He has the truth in his database.
It was not targetted at you (none of this was specifically) We have had a couple of posts in the forums with that kind of header from a couple of times from people. -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#7I hope we are getting somewhere. ;)
I am hardly as active as I probably should be (or as active as I want to be) as most of the free time I have is killing bugs that you all find and trying to add features. That is one of the reasons I depend on you all so much to really run the site from day to day. If it was just me this place would languish. If you see a need, I can ditch any updates for awhile and come back to the citadel for awhile.
Complaints and whining. I have a short attention span and am usually in the moment taking one situation at a time and rarely hold past actions against anyone (if I can even remember them). If I get really annoyed with somebody then they hit a pet peeve or have established an obvious trend. At that point they are screwed because it usually takes me a while to get gunned up like that and once I do you are a target. My last real annoyance was the diceman, I was called on it, I then ignored him, and now I accept him as part of the site and just don't mess with it at all. I know I was wrong with that one but was caught up in a pet peeve. I say that because I really don't know what all this is about. I either missed what drove it or forgot what happened.
My major problem, without knowing the problem, would not be the actual complaints or whining but in the tact involved in their display. I have no examples, nor would I pull one, but simple common courtesy for the other is all I think we need. Complain and whine all you want, as long as it doesn't sound like a complaint or whine. You can be polite and get your point across just as easily as getting personal about it. I am just as guilty as others and it will continue to happen so it is sort of like beating a dead horse. People are people and we will complain. It is more on how we handle these complaints or whines then the complaints or whines themselves.
And if anything is deleted you can probably blame me. In the moment and all that, if it is brought to my attention I usually act pretty much immediately because if I wait, nothing will happen. A good plan executed aggressively is better than a great plan executed later and all that.
Don't want to interrupt, but wanted to toss out a few thoughts.
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Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#8Thanks for the input Strolen!
Here is something from manfred and me:
Ancient Gamer] 1:18 am: And the emotional outbursts, those we could contain in Area 51 - The Complaint Area
[Ancient Gamer] 1:18 am: Have any complaints? Area 51 is the place to go!
1:18 am: Now that is some word!
[Ancient Gamer] 1:18 am: Could you live with such a section?
1:18 am: A good area you have built there.
1:19 am: I definitely accept, nay, endorse its existence.
[Ancient Gamer] 1:19 am: A section dedicated to feedback and complaints? It would serve as a kind of "Backyard of admin fury" for ordinary users.
1:19 am: Uhhh...what? A second..
1:20 am: ...I thought you were speaking about the Backyard.
1:20 am: A Complaint Area.. that has to be considered carefully.
[Ancient Gamer] 1:21 am: Ah. Yes. A place where ORDINARY users could tell us what they disliked. We'd even have formalities that they would have to follow.
1:21 am: We have the Ideas/... section.
1:21 am: Formalities... *rolls eyes*
[Ancient Gamer] 1:21 am: Yes. An "Area 51 - Troubles, complaints and rants"
[Ancient Gamer] 1:21 am: I said that to please you :p (formalities)
1:22 am: Heheh.
1:22 am: And we would be sending PMs...
[Ancient Gamer] 1:22 am: If we could purge the citadel of bad vibes. Purge them into the area 51, thereby acknowledging them, but also isolating them where
people know what they will get when reading.
1:23 am: "Your note is just being processed. Please stand by as we evaluate it. Your opinion is very important for us..."
1:23 am: How about the Cavern?
[Ancient Gamer] 1:23 am: Something like that.
[Ancient Gamer] 1:23 am: Could work
1:23 am: That is a focus of dark energies.
[Ancient Gamer] 1:23 am: Yes. Necromantic sources of rebellion and deceit. I like it!
1:24 am: You might do an experiment and open a thread.
[Ancient Gamer] 1:24 am: Not without Strolen's opinion on the matter
1:24 am: Throw it out and see what happens.
1:24 am: That's a good idea.
[Ancient Gamer] 1:24 am: Is it okay with you if I cut and paste this chat into a pm to him?
[Ancient Gamer] 1:25 am: Or the Area 51 part anyhow
[Ancient Gamer] 1:25 am: From 1:18 am and down
1:25 am: Oh, and don't forget a clause that it pertains to the Main Citadel only (or creative parts of the forums).
[The Citadel]: valadaar has entered at 1:25 am
1:26 am: Hello AG, manfred!
1:26 am: (You want to avoid Chuckanator in there.)
1:26 am: Hallo, valadaar!
[Ancient Gamer] 1:26 am: So, what if some really bad stuff ended up in main site sub comments? Should it remain there or be purged into Area 51?
[Ancient Gamer] 1:26 am: Ah, that is what you meant. Now I got it!
1:27 am: Really bad stuff would get purged, but we have mechanisms for it.
[Ancient Gamer] 1:27 am: Okay manfred! I send it to Strolen then!
[Ancient Gamer] 1:28 am: Oh my! We lay quite a burden on him, don't we?
1:28 am: (AG: So, Area 51 is not to my liking, the other is. And you can send it.)
1:28 am: We do. -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#9Okay. I dunno whether I am a "hypocrite" or not. I just try to get things done. So: There you have it! A proposal for solution! (Getting emotional baggage out of the way, yet accepted! It worked so well for us admins!) -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#10No. Not going to have a public forum for personal attacks. And if you don't think it will end up as personal attacks, you are way wrong. My wife belongs to a board that has it and it is a NIGHTMARE.
You think it might be like the admin forum, but the admin forum is just for random outbursts and a few hear hears. It might start out cordial, kinda, but as people get comfortable with it, it will quickly turn personal. Imagine if just a portion of our admin thread was put in the public realm and think of the repercussions and responses to some of that. It will not be just somebody throwing out a complaint, it will be somebody throwing a complaint, the person responding to it, it will be others seeing that and defending or agreeing with the bashing. Teams will be forged, insults will be thrown and there will be cliques. Things you don't like about people, other people probably agree with you and have the same dislikes, and all those opinions may come out in the forum and it will go back and forth about each public whine that comes to light. That is a BAD thing. Any rules you have for it are out the window.
We have bug reports and suggestions. Anything they don't like about the site can be discussed there. I have it plain in that forum's description. Any personal grudges should not be personal anyway. It should be revolve around the content and comments, not personal feelings; any bantering should be about a specific comment, not the person. In a complaint forum, it will get personal....it just will.
I also don't want a place to put rude comments. If they are rude enough to move, they are rude enough to edit with a note or delete.
Better a PM here or there or a rude exchange that is quickly subdued.
This complaint forum is one idea that I will be a hardheaded on and am not willing to entertain it. -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#11Fair enough. Real life experiences are invaluable in that regard.
Saved us a lot of trouble then ;) -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#12I will do a brainstorm on the subject. I want to discover something that is palatable and constructive. -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#13I don't understand what's wrong with the system we have. -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#14http://www.strolen.com/content.php?node=3620 -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#15The only thing I know to suggest is tell people with problems to PM an admin, if they don't want to post it on the Problems/Suggestions thread. -
Re: Why I believe complaints are essential and good.
#16That seems to be the conclusion of the thread.
Oh well. Can't have rules for everything I suppose.