AD&D Gunfighter

1. AD&D Gunfighter

   #1

   I was thinking -
   Guns aren't used much in AD&D, and for good reason :P
   
   But perhaps, if there was a custom kit that specializes in the use of guns, they would be more worthwhile. Anyone have any ideas?

2. AD&D Gunfighter

   #2

   The gnomes are usually the ones considered to be the tinkerers, aren't they? A gun would probably be a gnomish invention, so a gunfighter would probably have to be a gnome or have good relations with gnomes.

3. AD&D Gunfighter

   #3

   I think it depends entirely on the context. I would be against the use of guns in most campaigns, save for historically based ones, in which case the limitations of the period should be borne in mind: eighteenth century guns would probably be less accurate, take longer to load, and heavier than they are today.
   
   I'd also recommend requiring two proficiency slots for the use of guns, since they are so specialised and inflict so much damage.
   
   In fantasy settings maybe a more innovative magical alternative could be found: a baby dragon, when its mouth is loaded with a heavy metal ball and its nose sprinkled with pepper dust, might sneeze and catapult the ball out like a cannon. A captive or geased sprite might fire arrows in the direction its master points it.
   
   I think guns are best avoided generally, though, in both roleplaying and in real life.
   
   ephe!

4. AD&D Gunfighter

   #4

   Gnomes don't neccessarilly have to have anything to do with it.
   
   There are already rules about gun prof. slots.
   
   And by the way, that is all well and good, but I think that, in some cases, guns can be a fun addition to the game...

5. AD&D Gunfighter

   #5

   I don't really see the attraction: guns can make combat considerably less interesting, since it is all over in a flash.
   
   In a stereotypical setting I'd agree with Ria, gnomes tend to be into that sort of mechanical thing, so they'd be likelier to invent and produce guns. Indeed, the restriction of guns to one particular race would provide for good plot hooks, as the other races competed to steal the technology from them.
   
   Maybe guns could be made illegal by a ruler who fears their power. This would restrict their use to desperate situations, or provide plot hooks (tracing users/producers). Alternatively, they could have only just been discovered, and a murder inquiry might be perplexed by the strange but characteristic injuries on the bodies: what could have caused them (a la Terry Pratchett's "Men at Arms")?
   
   ephe!

6. AD&D Gunfighter

   #6

   One option may be the steam gun I listed in the items section. You eliminate gunpowder and all its other uses entirely, and although I listed the tinker gnomes as the inventors, anyone that can cast a spell to heat something up could make the gun.
   
   The technology is limited to single shot weapons as if you tried to make a revolver, the chamber next to the one that was being fired would get hot enough to set off it's "shell" too. Even a side by side barrel wouldn't work for the same reasons. Instead of rifling, since the gun uses metal stoppers, they could use a broken drill bit as a slug and the drill bit's grouves would act a bit like a rifled barrel, so some longer range shots would be possible. Sniper assassins would still prefer the more accurate and much more quiet bow as opposed to the large cloud of steam and loud hiss of a steam gun.

7. Might I recomend...

   #7

   If you are looking for some cool gun feats and abilities, may I suggest Spycraft. Not only is it a good game, it will give you what you need for feats for a gunslinger.
   
   As for class, I would suggest simple fighter, with a required exotic weapon skill/ feat. It does not need a class of its own. It is not a special magikal weapon, anyone can use one. (If you think about them as weak magik items that any class can use that have expensive material components to use, guns become a lot less scary in a hit point game.) The whole point is the access issue.
   
   When introducing them to a campaign ask the following question...
   
   Who knows how to make a gun? Is it limited to a given culture/ society or race? Are the assasins the only ones who know how to make them? Making a gun requires a good grade of steel... who has access to that? Does who ever make them keep it as a monopoly or does it sell them to anyone with enough cash?
   
   How expensive is a gun? Is this a nobles only weapon? (Will it become the badge of honor for the social class?) Can anyone get one? Are their laws against Non-Nobles carrying them? Are they sold or do you have to earn them? If only one man in a kingdom can make them, what is the wait like waiting for a gun to be made? What happens to the idiot who threatens the ONLY gun maker in the kingdom?
   
   How expensive is gun powder? Having a gun is easy. Having powder to use in it is the controlling issue. A monopoly or near monopoly on making powder assures that it will not wreck your game because shots will be limited. I have had guns in a fantasy game. I also charged 100GP per shot/ charge. If the Alchemists or Assasins or Powder makers charge dearly for powder, people will seldom use their firearms. If it is cheaper than arrows, then everyone will be able to shoot as fast as they can.
   
   
   Just some thoughts.....

8. AD&D Gunfighter

   #8

   There are some good thoughts here... Thanks for your time :wink:

9. AD&D Gunfighter

   #9

   The first guns were made from cast bronze, not good steel. To have them made from steel, but be limited to nobles would suggest a heavily bloody history of gun fighting after which guns were outlawed and destroyed (Think england, only much more bloody). This would make a large underground market of hidden guns. These guns would be old and unreliable. Only the newer guns made for the nobility would be reliable. And, of course, due to nobility being able to say "I don't care, just make it the way I command" many of these guns are likely to be silly, with barrels cast in the shape of dragons heads, Ridiculously big or long (to account for an inadequacy), made with precious metals and jewels, and otherwise be vastly eye-catching and recognizable. For them, it's part of thier wardrobe.
   
   An interesting note about early forms of gunpowder. When first mixed with early techniques, gun powder would settle, with the charcoal, sulfur and saltpewter seperating. After marching for a hundred miles, the soildiers would try to fire their guns and nothing happens. It wasn't untill people discovered wet mixing that gunpowder would fire reliably. You can let your players think they're being all clever, making their own gunpowder and avoiding the 100 gp a shot cost, just give thier home made gunpowder a chance of firing 19 or less on a d 20 to fire, minus 1 for every 5 miles marched. March 50 miles, your gunpowder hads a 50/50 chance of working. The powder makers should probally know how to mix theirs wet, making reliability worth the cost.

10. AD&D Gunfighter

    #10

    :lol: Where did you dig this up?

11. AD&D Gunfighter

    #11

    How do you people find these things, man? I mean, you must surf the net deep into the 'o' dark thirty! Or do you already have these on hand?

12. AD&D Gunfighter

    #12

    I am just a voice against gunpowder in a fantasy setting. If they want guns, they usually want a Sci-Fi campaign, so we switch genres. If they really want to have guns in a fantasy settnig, they probally want to be munchkins and don't expect to get shot. Remember, land mines are quite simple devices, ones munchkins in fantasy setting rarely look for.
    
    http://www.silcom.com/~vikman/isles/scriptorium/firearm/firearm.html
    http://www.lrml.org/longrange/history02.htm
    
    These links explain early firearms. It would probally take me another 4 hours to find the gunpowder settling site. Take my word for it or research it yourself. :P

13. Good Net scholarship...

    #13

    And good point about a fool...er noble and his weapon.

14. AD&D Gunfighter

    #14

    Thanks for the link... and the munchkin warning :lol:

15. AD&D Gunfighter

    #15

    It might be possible to find a way to work guns into a fantasy setting without giving the users of said guns too much power. The world that Randal Garret's Lord Darcy books are set in comes to mind.

16. AD&D Gunfighter

    #16

    You intrigue me. Please explain.

17. AD&D Gunfighter

    #17

    I concur...

18. AD&D Gunfighter

    #18

    In general, the setting of the Lord Darcy books is that of our own world in th early 1900s. The twists are:
    
    A) Magic takes the place of science as top dog. Many things that we accieve with science, they do with magic. Science is still present but it is a minor field of research, for the most part, with guns being one ot the few constants.
    
    B)Most of the world is ruled (or allied with) the Anglo-French Empire. This is what SUPPOSEDLY came from King Richard the Lion-Heart surviving a mortal wound during the crusades. Their chief rival is the Polish Empire. Best to read one of the books for clearer details.

19. AD&D Gunfighter

    #19

    I think I will do that... Thanks, Fiokar

20. Also if guns are present....

    #20

    If guns are present and become popular, then won't the MUs respond and create some basic anti-gun spells?
    
    Anti-missile: Add AC vs Guns.. first level
    
    Reflect Bullets: A low level spell design to reflect bullets and only bullets back at their "caster", with the mages to hit roll.
    
    Snuff: creates a radius where all fires (and tiny fires/ explosions being required for early guns to go off) will not work.
    
    Oops: Cast this cantrip at a powder bag or gun and watch the charge go off.
    
    These and many more can make guns bad. If these spells are of a low enough level, then having a gun becomes more of a liability than an asset.
    
    Also read the Lord Darcy Books... very good reading.

21. AD&D Gunfighter

    #21

    More anti guns spells ...
    
    Dampen - wets the powder, making it not fire.
    
    Plug - Telekinetic forces obstruct the barrel, making the gun explode in the shooter's hand.
    
    Delay Spark - The gun functions normally, except the spark to set off the powder is delayed one round. Let's hope they don't decide to clean their barrel...
    
    Cast stone to flesh/mud on thier flint.
    
    Cast heat metal on their gun.
    
    Cast warp wood on their stock. May jam the trigger mechanism or bent the barrel.
    
    Enlarge their bullet and/or shrink their barrel.
    
    Feather fall their bullet. best to do this BEFORE it is fired.
    
    Hold portal the hammer. (Valve of metal?)

22. You begin to see....

    #22

    There are hundreds of ways to balance out the power of a firearm. These spells give you great examples of game mechanics to solve the issue. There can be social and allignment issues (If the Lawful church declares it Heresey to use, only chaotics will use it.) to restrict its use. There can be social role rules associated with it.
    
    These are the same things we can do with any powerful force in a game (some people do it to MUs, or certain player races). For every advantage, there should be a matching limitation. It is the drama of overcoming that limitation that enhances the fun of the game.

23. Re: AD&D Gunfighter

    #23

    Keep in mind that guns were around for a couple of hundred years before they became a significant factor in tactical decision making.  Early handheld guns were expensive, short-ranged, and unreliable.
    
    If introducing guns, they need not be super deadly.  Bows and crossbows can inflict horrific wounds, as the arrow/bolt tends to jerk sideways as it hits, tearing a much more severe internal wound than many people realize.  People think of gunshot wounds in terms of Hollywood, not in terms of their actual effects.  Arrow wounds can be as deadly.
    
    

24. Re: AD&D Gunfighter

    #24

    You know, I had forgotten about this thread. There is some good ideas in here.
    
    Some links you might find useful
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Early_firearms
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm#History
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_firearms
    
    
    These are all modern:
    This listing is from the IGW listing. There is some really great stuff in that thread. Strolen really needs to develop the web links submission system for us.
    
    We don't always want to play with swords and magic. Sometimes reality is checked in.  So here is some useful links for many peoples' favorite toys. They are mostly "Equipment/ Price list suitable sites, but you can get some interesting information and resource material off some of them.
    
    ** Firearms Tactial **:www.firearmstactical.com/
    Firearms Tutorial: http://medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNINTRO.html
    
    ***Security Arms –Pictures of Firearms ***.: http://www.securityarms.com/
    
    Advanced Armament: www.advanced-armament.com
    American Slider: www.americanslider.com
    Ammo Guide: http://ammoguide.com/
    Bagmaster: www.bagmaster.com
    Barrett rifles : www.barrettrifles.com
    Berretta:www.berettausa.com
    Blackhawk industries: www.blackhawkindustries.com
    Blackheart: www.1stoptacticalgear.com
    Boonie Packer: www.booniepacker.com
    Buck Knife: www.buckknives.com
    Buffer Technology: www.buffertech.com
    Bushmasters: www.bushmaster.com/
    Capital City Firearms: www.ccfa.com
    CIA: www.cia.gov
    **CIA Factbook **: www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
    Cimarron Western Firearms: www.cimarron-firearms.com
    Colt: www.Colt.com
    Concealed Carry Clothiers: www.concealedcarry.com
    Cop Search: leolinks.com
    Corbion: www.corbion.com
    Cowboy Guns: www.usfirearms.com
    ** DARPA **: www.darpa.mil
    Debritos: www.debritos.com
    Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms: www.atf.gov
    Desantis: www.desantisholsters.com
    Don Hume Holsters: www.donhume.com
    DPMS: www.dpmsinc.com
    DS Arms: www.dsarms.com
    Eo Tech: www.eotech-inc.com
    Espionage Info.: GovernmentIntelligence.com
    European American Armory: www.eaacorp.com
    FBI: www.fbi.gov
    Firearms and Liberty (take with salt) : www.firearmsandliberty.com
    Fn : www.fnhusa.com
    Forbus: www.forbusholster.com
    Galco intl: www.usgalco.com
    Gemtech: www.gem-tech.com
    Gerber Blades: www.gerberblades.com
    GG&G: www.gggaz.com
    Gunshot Wounds articles: http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/llb/gunshot.htm
    .\Investigation School: www.pvteye.com
    Glock inc: www.glock.com
    Gould and Goodrich: www.gouldusa.com
    Gun Vault: www.gunvault.com
    Harrts: www.harrtsrecoil.com
    Horus Vision: www.horusvision.com
    Island Group: www.islandsecuritystore.com
    Kahr :www.khar.com
    Kel Tech: www.kel-tech.com
    Kershaw Knives: www.kershawknives.com
    Knife Mart: www.KnifeMart.com
    Lancer Books: www.warbooks.com
    Laser Max: www.Lasermax-inc.com
    Magsafe: www.magsafeonline.com
    Maxsell corp: www.maxsell.cm
    McMillian: mcmfamily.com
    MD Tactical: www.mdtactical.com
    mec-gar: www.mec-gar.com
    Meprolight: www.meprolight.com
    MI 5: www.trousers.co.uk/mi5/
    Military Book Club: www.militarybookclub.com
    Military site: http://www.1st-militarysite.com/
    Muscle Products: www.mpc-home.com
    *NET BOOK OF FIREARMS*: http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Firearms-No-Frames.htm
    Operation Parts: www.operationparts.com
    ***** Paladin Press ******: www.paladin-press.com
    Pearce Grips: www.pearcegrip.com
    Police Officer Support.: www.officer.com
    Police Online: www.policeone.com
    Pro Edge Knives: www.proedgeknives.com
    Remington: www.remington.com
    Rugers: www.ruger-firearms.com
    Rock River Arms: www.rockriverarms.com
    Savage Arms: www.savagearms.com
    Schmidt Bender: www.schmidt-bender.com
    Sentry Solutions: www.sentrysolutions.com
    Shooters Choice: www.shooters-choice.com
    Shooting Systems: www.gunaccessories.com
    SigArms: www.sigarms.com
    Smith and Alexander: www.smithandalexander.com
    Smith and Wesson: www.smith-wesson.com
    SOG Specialty Knives: www.sogknives.com
    Spyderco: www.spyderco.com
    Spy Toys: www.espionage-store.com
    SWAT Products: www.policeoneproducts.com
    TacMIII: www.tacm3.com
    Taser International: www.taser.com
    US PI SCHOOL: www.spytechangency.com
    Wilson Combat: www.wilsoncombat.com
    
    
    http://www.thegunzone.com/
    
    
    

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