Citadel Genres

1. Citadel Genres

   #1

   I would keep the same basic layout as the general citadel for the new genre sections but I would change the color palatte. Supers could be a suitable array of bright spandex-y colors while a horror page could be done in black with red text or something like that. The Tech could be all gray and silver and stuff.

2. Re: Citadel Genres

   #2

   While we could split stuff up into genres, each genre having its own "site", there is too much stuff which is useful across genres or that are hard to pin down.
   
   Anything from ShadowRun? Is that fantasy? Science Fiction? Science Fantasy?
   
   Deadlands? Fantasy or Western or Horror or ????
   
   Some of the Supers designated stuff works well in Pulp and even Fantasy. Some fantasy things work perfectly for supers.  There are supers games that use super power mechanics that are actually espionage or conspiracy games. How do you qualify those?
   
   And let us not forget historical posts that work well for fantasy or fantasy inspiration.
   
   And what happens when people disagree as to where the submission should go (what genre it really is.) Who gets the final say?
   
   No, please, don't break it up.  It didn't work for the RPG library site. It didn't work for GreenKey. It probably will not work here.
   
   Sure, it means you have to deal with the occasional science fiction thing when you are searching your fantasy magic items... but it is a small price to pay for some lack of hassle later.
   

3. Re: Citadel Genres

   #3

   Would be able to cross-genre stuff easily.
   
   A SF post could be displayed in SF and Fantasy if it fit in both. And I am not wanting to break it down to a huge amount of different genres either, SF and Fantasy being the most popular, is obvious to start and see how it goes. Those two popular genres would be the most easy to classify between and all those others you mention, if they want to post them, go wherever the author sees fit, just like now. Nobody is throwing up arms at warp drives in the fantasy, why would anybody freak out about something else mildly out of genre? Plus, many of your examples go system specific...it all depends on the submission and how it is presented regardless of the system. It might turn up that many many many many submissions are both equally SF and Fantasy...so be it. I add three more fields so the post can be classified in fantasy and/or SF categories and there you go. Still would pretty much use the same submission form, just a few more selection boxes and you could make it viewable into another genre.
   
   The genres will not be mutually exclusive, they will be overlapping and interwoven. I would think that you could still link between fantasy and SF too. If something that is hardcore fantasy made you think of a good SF submission and an updated version was made to be hardcore SF you could link between the two...or for whatever other reason.
   
   SF has a huge following and a separation would justify a place for the SF submissions as well as make it easier for people to find what they want. Right now we are fantasy so we don't get much SF. Many people do both genres, as you well know, so we broaden our author base when we offer both genres.
   
   Not saying it won't be a little work to do or that it is going to happen immediately, and that is why I classified it at about the same difficulty as the Settings sections in another post. The Settings and genre sections will do much of the same thing, only bring in those submissions associated with what setting/genre you are viewing.
   
   Just a pretty SF template and the SF category system. Same setup/format, just the ability to post your submission to only SF, only fantasy, or SF and fantasy. Probably could even make a mega-Citadel that shows ALL the genres in one place. :)
   
   
   

4. Re: Citadel Genres

   #4

   If it is not such a hassle, then why make the division at all?  Key Words, Categories, and such could make the difference then.
   
   Settings are more important.

5. Re: Citadel Genres

   #5

   I will agree that Settings are more important but, when I have the coding bug and there is a decision between Settings and Genres, if Settings aren't solidified on how we are going to do them and the Genre setup is already there, well, the easy choice is Genres because I can jump right into it.
   
   It is better for me to have multiple projects to work on because, between Mathom and my moods, I will always have something I am in the mood to work on.

6. Re: Citadel Genres

   #6

   That or the links anyway.

7. Re: Citadel Genres

   #7

   I dont think that a split between sci-fi and fantasy would be bad since sometimes there have been ideas I have had that have been shelved since they were too technical for the general swords and sorcery feel of the citadel. I think if there is a distinction between swords and sorcery goes here, and sci-fi, modern, futuristic goes here might bring in more people. How much Star Wars/Star Trek/Babylon 5/Shadowrun/Steam punk/battletech stuff wanders away because the gearheads are concerned that the Fantasiers dont want tech in their magic?
   
   Supers would go into that category since almost every supers game I have seen, which is not many mind you, have been at minimum 20th century modern.
   
   Besides, I would like there to be a more a technological, science fiction (or speculative fiction since Moon says Sci-Fi isnt a genre) type forum for me and others to post our mecha creations, space faring nations, cloning and cyborg campaigns, and the latest edition to the excellent line of Mydron autopistols.
   
   These things are a valid part of fiction, but they feel very much out of place in the Citadel, which is very much concentrated around magic swords, elves, dragons, and were-weevils.

8. Re: Citadel Genres

   #8

   Could definately do a forum in the meantime regardless. Then just play the "transfer" game that we love so much if/when I get a new genre side up.
   
   Come up with the forum title and description and I will put it up immediately.

9. Re: Citadel Genres

   #9

   if not a full forum, just had this idea in the shower BTW, what if there was a selectable option.
   
   There are the click buttons for what type of submission a sub is, what if there was a genre selectable
   
   A short list
   
   Fantasy - default option
   Sci-Fi
   Steampunk
   Western
   Horror
   

10. Re: Citadel Genres

    #10

    I mispoke, a SF Board is what I meant. Put it under Idea Guild or whatever.
    
    If it was only that simple, and it could be if you wanted to use all the fantasy categories. But, as I see it, each of the genres you speak of would need their own categorizations. Can't lump SF locations into:
    Desert
    Forest/ Jungle
    Mountains
    Other
    Plains
    Swamp
    Tundra/ Arctic
    Underground
    Water
    
    They would need
    planets
    solar systems
    asteroids
    
    Not to mention the conflicts with items and those categories.
    
    There would also have to a modified submission process in order to cross genre a submission in order to categorize it in the proper fantasy categories as well as the SF ones. That is why I am only willing to do one genre to start with whatever we call it.

11. Re: Citadel Genres

    #11

    8:55 pm: Say, what do you think of that recent Sci-fi idea?
    [Ancient Gamer] 8:56 pm: Umm
    [Ancient Gamer] 8:56 pm: Sci-Fi? You mean genres?
    8:56 pm: I seem to have opened a can of worms.
    8:56 pm: Yup. Genres.
    [Ancient Gamer] 8:57 pm: I stick to you and Scrasamax here, but I am tired of the Citadel debates so I keep my yap shut
    8:57 pm: Well, but there is some grain of truth in that.
    8:57 pm: Don't want the page to split into several...
    [Ancient Gamer] 8:57 pm: Of course. He wouldn't have said it otherwise
    8:57 pm: ...got to think of a way to keep it all together.
    [Ancient Gamer] 8:58 pm: For me a tag during submission creation had been enough. Perhaps the theme could change slightly... for instance
    showing a biodome instead of the citadel when you browsed a sci-fi post...
    8:59 pm: Hell, I will like if there is some checkbox or what that makes a sub sci-fi worthy.
    [Ancient Gamer] 8:59 pm: But a change of flavour when you read the sub would have been great (but you still need to retain continuity with the old site)
    8:59 pm: Yes, exactly. Change the design, and that would be it (for the beginning at least).
    [Ancient Gamer] 9:00 pm: I think the icons could change, but you'd need to retain the fonts and colour scheme. Otherwise people would get
    confused
    [Ancient Gamer] 9:00 pm: I think subtle transformation is what you guys are searching for
    9:00 pm: Later, we could add more support through the profile - so that if you mark yourself a sci-fi freak, you'll see all those things
    first.
    [Ancient Gamer] 9:00 pm: Heh, yeah!
    9:01 pm: Yup. Borders and the like.
    [Ancient Gamer] 9:01 pm: If EVERYTHING changes people would believe they exited the site and might opt for the "back" button in their browser
    9:01 pm: We might even change the 'flames' a little - to note that the sub is different.
    9:01 pm: Or add some little icon on the summary pages.
    9:02 pm: Right. Not extreme, but still clearly saying: this ain't a fantasy post.
    [Ancient Gamer] 9:02 pm: Yeah
    [Ancient Gamer] 9:03 pm: So the urge for sci-fi is surging through the citadellians, eh?
    [Ancient Gamer] 9:03 pm: I have an urge for post-apocalyptic stuff myself
    9:03 pm: Well, then, Mr. Master-Of-All-Graphics, you've got a new job.     
    9:03 pm: Me, I don't think we really need lots of categories at first.
    9:04 pm: There's a lot of 'Other' categories and similar.

12. Re: Citadel Genres

    #12

    My Vision in a Nutshell:
    
    Help, my vision is in a nutshell. How did it get in this nutshell. Help, I can't get it out of this nutshell.
    
    ahem....k
    
    Two Genres: Fantasy / SF  (don't care about any others in my vision)
    
    Three types of submissions:
    1) Fantasy (only show up on fantasy 'site')
    2) SF (only show up on SF 'site')
    3) Fantasy+SF (show up on BOTH 'sites')
    
    Two "sites" are set-up and are structurally identical except:
    1) Graphics
    2) Categories
    
    These two 'sites' are still strolen.com and completely integrated using the SAME code and SAME databases. Feature upgrades on one WILL immediately reflect on the other. There will be obvious submissions that can fit both genres and there will be obvious submissions that only fit one or another. It is up to the AUTHOR to decide where it goes and I don't care what their decision is so the debate on where stuff goes does not interest me.
    
    The sites WILL NOT look like you bounced to completely different site. It will still say "Strolen's Citadel. blah blah Read post play" but have a different SF graphical theme. Remember the structure and link placement is all the same, just a different theme and different content.
    
    There will be THREE different 'sites' (read 'sites' as 'filters on submissions')
    1) Fantasy (like we have now)
    2) SF (like we have now but with SF categories and themes)
    3) Fantasy + SF (Maybe some kind of bastardized theme that mixes the two where ALL submissions will be visible. I like the idea from that chat that in this particular 'site' the submissions will be identified by their graphic scheme. Fantasy Graphics. SF Graphics. Bastardized Graphics)
    
    THAT is my vision.
    
    Citadel debates are what improves the site, but I don't fault you for not wanting to join it because they can get tedious. Moon and I went back and forth for months arguing over something we already agreed on etc, but V2.0 turned out awesome...so I am happy to discuss to tedious detail whatever necessary to get what WE want.
    
    So BRING IT ON!! You lurkers, don't be bashful. The more the merrier. :) Even if is non-constructive like "this idea sucks, don't bother" or whatever. I might cry, but I have tissue so DO IT!
    
    

13. Re: Citadel Genres

    #13

    You still want a title for a Sf forum board?  How bout "Space Station Citadel" or some such.  Description... man, I don't know. 

14. Re: Citadel Genres

    #14

    Better than anything I have seen yet!!
    
    Did I post a conversation killer?

15. Re: Citadel Genres

    #15

    I like the Cosmic Pluralism better.  :lol:

16. Re: Citadel Genres

    #16

    Potential names
    
    Deep Space Strolen...no?
    
    Alright
    
    Strolen 5...no again. You're no fun.
    
    Strolen Trek! Strolen Wars! Back to the Strolen!
    
    heathens and heretics all.
    
    Seriously, something like Strolen's Outpost, or Strolen's Station...
    
    Will work on some category-listy stuff tomorrow...or whatever comes after the end of the world.

17. Re: Citadel Genres

    #17

    Posted a board near the top, let me know if you want it changed.

18. Re: Citadel Genres

    #18

    Back to genres and in partial response to Moon's thought in the other thread.
    
    Two Options:
    A switch from the bottom up.
    
    Option 1a:
    In this case all I do is add a SF flag (hell, whatever and however many flags you want) and those posts will have to still be identified in the current fantasy subcategories. The subcategories for each section will remain exactly the same. You click on NPC->Combative, you get all SF and Fantasy Combative NPCs. You click on the filter then you get only SF or only Fantasy.
    
    From looking at stuff, Locations and Items look the most difficult to incorporate SF stuff into as far as stock labels. The Desert, Mountains, etc. seem to be mostly useless to other genres except for Star Wars worlds which are generally all the same on the entire planet. You may have better ideas on how to handle this stuff.
    
    Option 1b:
    Same as 1a in that we still use the same categories, but I enable a change in the actual label of the subcategories. The subcategories will still overlap, but while the label for, say Locations, would have to updated to be more all encompassing for SF. World may become Galaxy, Regional may be labeled Solar System, whatever.  Even being able to change some of the names doesn't help the sorting because a SF Galaxy will be in the same subcategory as a Fantasy World when browsing in my example.
    
    A switch from the top down.
    Moon is right in his thought that this actually does pretty much segregate the two systems. The main page could intercouple both genres seamlessly with random/new/HoH etc in the center section. The left column would be fine showing both, whichever were newer in that major category since both would still retain the major category divisions that are along the top of the citadel. They are pretty universal and applicable to anything. You could still switch and see only one or the other if you so desired.
    
    Once you started browsing those categories you run into some problems on how to show both. At this point both SF and Fantasy would have different subcategories so if you wanted to see both we would have to figure out a way to display both sets. My thought is, once you go beyond the frontpage you need to choose Fantasy or SF and deal with it. You could click on a single link and be whipped over to the other genre in that same main category, but the overlapping would basically halt past the frontpage.
    
    If you can think of a different way to do that one, I am all years.

19. Re: Citadel Genres

    #19

    Clearly 1a.
    
    Anyway, how many Galaxies will be posted? (Ever?) Even sci-fish locations may not be many. For now we have the handy category Other, and we can expand the categories if need be. I can imagine many planets/moons arising some day, for them we could keep World or make a category of its own. Until then, we can just wing it.

20. Re: Citadel Genres

    #20

    I'll agree with Manfred. The simplest way is best me'thinks.

21. Re: Citadel Genres

    #21

    Don't, I repeat, Don't go simple.  a) Go USEFUL Bang for the buck. b) I don't like simple. It is boring. What makes the most sense for what we do and it none of those options fit, brainstorm some more!
    
    (You may not have meant it like that but it gave me an opportunity to spout. :vomit: )

22. Re: Citadel Genres

    #22

    Articles
    I see no need to change any of the categories, most of the articles stuff is fairly generic when it comes to gaming and western/sci-fi articles are fine along side fantasy articles, besides there arent many in this category to begin with.
    
    Dungeons
    Not sure if this category can be converted to any other genre since the dungeon is staple Fantasy... Puzzles and traps could be valid categories outside of the standard dungeon...
    
    Items
    This category has a large amount of potential since Sci-Fi is in a big part all about spiffy gadgets and space ships...
    
    Missle Weapons - Since the array of weapons of sci-fi is staggering, and aside from the Light Saber and vibro-weapons, most are 'missle weapons'
    Ballistic - guns that use explosive powder/ammunition, etc
    Energy Weapons - lasers, masers and particle accelerators
    Missle Weapons - the rockets, photon torpedoes and the like
    Scale - subcategory for the weapon box, expressing if the weapon is man sized (pistol, rifle) vehicle sized (tank cannon) or capital sized (battleship cannon)
    
    Transports - could be expanded into
    Vehicles (tanks, cars, hovercraft)
    Flying Craft (fighters, shuttles, helicopters)
    Mecha (Chicks dig my giant robot!)
    Small Space Ship (ala the Millenium Falcon)
    Large Space Ship (Enterprise, Star Destroyer)
    
    Other
    Computer/Android - more of a template since humanoid robots could technically go in the NPC section.
    Alien Artifact
    Anomaly of Space Time
    
    Lifeform
    Third Kingdom - could be expanded
    Robots and thinking machines
    Silicon/energy based life forms
    Habitat
    add space/vacuum
    
    Location
    Nation -  could use added text explaining multiple world nations ala the Successor States of Battletech, or the 13 colonies of Battlestar Galactica, or the Star Wars Empire.
    World --> Planet/Moon
    TransWorld --> Solar System (not expected to be a large category)
    Galaxy? - I dont think many people would respond to that category, but who knows, I could be wrong, its happened once before...thousands died...the stock market crashed, millions wept...
    
    Space Station - artificial or man-made location
    Anomaly - quasars, rifts in time space, chained cosmic strings, and the rest of the weird crap goes here.
    
    NPCs
    Focus sub-category
    Android/robot
    Synthetic/clone
    Genie (genetically altered being)
    
    Plots
    N/C
    
    Society
    N/C
    
    Systems
    N/C
    
    
    

23. Re: Citadel Genres

    #23

    Then if it has to be, 1ab:
    
    Make the SF flag, and expand the categories a little. We can always add them if there is interest. Make them appetite for SF and other genres with basic support and grow with the ideas that come to us.
    
    Looking at the list below, the only thing we really need is Habitat: Space/Vacuum. Maybe also Space Station. And: Anomaly may be defined as to contain weird Fantasy locations.
    
    
    And Galaxies... please no. :)

24. Re: Citadel Genres

    #24

    I didn't mean to push and rereading I might have. I simply want the best idea to make the Citadel better and more useful. If you have an idea on what would be cool, that is what I want ignoring any technical or reorganization aspect.
    
    Scras, great start on the lists? I would have to assume that you are going with 1b maybe on some of those? The secondary category names would have to match the fantasy names enough for them to intersperse so when you say mecha and such (which don't have a comprable fantasy subcategory), that is going into the choice 2 realm for a completely different subcategory system right?

25. Re: Citadel Genres

    #25

    Just some ideas off the top of my head, and i can expand on them some. AS for what I'm doing? hell, i don't even know.
    
    as for mecha...couldn't that overlap with armor?

26. Re: Citadel Genres

    #26

    Yup, that would be armor. Plus I do remember of seeing something mecha-like in a fantasy world or two anyway.
    
    The less we rename, the better for us, best if nothing. Then we can easily put up submissions that are Fantasy/SF or whatever combination of types. Also, the sorters between us will be happy.

27. Re: Citadel Genres

    #27

    You know, we could just add a few categories to the existing ones... just to make it more complete. Missle supposedly includes firearms... but if you want to make a special category okay.  Sci-Fi will need all the existing categories... after all Light Sabers are just melee weapons.

28. Re: Citadel Genres

    #28

    That would be fine with me.

29. Re: Citadel Genres

    #29

    Give me a bit and I will work up some category expansions with appropriate text and modifications to existing ones: to better define and include Sci-Fi, Supers, Modern, and other genres.  The original categories will work, but if you want more specifics, we can do that.
    
    Mechas need their own category in items, because the smaller ones are armor (powered) and the bigger ones true vehicles. The ones inbetween get messy in their definitions. As do Forceshield.  We can then add a Hi-Tech to the second listing in items, to counterbalance magic.
    
    Aside: Dungeon can get expanded to "places of adventures" to include the Villanous Base, Cyberpunk Office Building and the Alien Base (the espionage, cyberpunk and sci-fi versions of the dungeon).  They all have traps and rooms and settings and corridores.  Just a thought.
    
    If we do this, then we need to run quick contests and quests and challanges to fill them up with 10 or so posts each.
    
    

30. Re: Citadel Genres

    #30

    Well, if we get Dungeon in the coming Quest, we can have this part covered immediately.
    
    The next Quest could be simply Sci-fi.

31. Re: Citadel Genres

    #31

    Well, Dungeon is looking likely, but we've still got two days.  How quick do you want it? A month?  Also, nothing says we can't run secondary challenges.  Can we have more than one quest running at a time?

32. Re: Citadel Genres

    #32

    Hey, when do we get this toy to play with? All I would want for now is the Sci-Fi tag, which would neatly fit several submissions.
    
    ---
    
    

    
    LABELS! WE NEED LABELS! Okay, this is the idea: We have several genre and category labels... Dark Fantasy, High Fantasy, Horror Fantasy, Steampunk, Post-apocalyptic, (Yes, MH, I know you do not consider this a genre:) Sci-fi, Contemporary, Gothic, Historical gaming, Sword and Planet, Sword and Sorcery, Epic, Low level, etc...
    
    The idea is that the reviewers can put one label on each sub they review, if they want to: Much in the fashion we HoH and Gold stuff. Then the statistics engine could calculate what labels a sub has, all the subs of an author or even all the subs of the Citadel and display these statics where appropriate.
    
    Why does not MoonHunter have  an opinion on this? It is very MoonHunter-ish ;)
    

    
    
    Now, my idea was that the poster himself would choose the labels. Let's face it, our time is sparse, and I am happy if I can vote and comment on a given sub. An additional task will require additional work from us, and then still more work when dozens of people start mis-applying labels on hundreds of submissions. Do we want that? I think not.
    
    
    So when do we get the toy? I'd prefer a small start, with just a few labels to choose from - more added as necessary.

33. Re: Citadel Genres

    #33

    The idea was taken from scrobbling software. That software lets the listeners apply labels to the songs they are listening to. If that means a user labels Britney Spears as "Industrial Punk" that is as it may be. Most users label her correctly as "Pop"

34. Re: Citadel Genres

    #34

    And it is a neat idea, I agree. The question is, whether we want it here. I would prefer a small number of relatively familiar labels, not "Angsty Contemporar X-Files Like Stuff With Bikinis". :)  Would be handier for searching, too. We can keep the categories we have now, and do a little renaming for the given genre label where desired.
    
    ---
    
    Aside: (MH) "We can then add a Hi-Tech to the second listing in items, to counterbalance magic."
    Why not simply rename the "Magical" type to "High-Tech"? :)  Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, after all.

35. Re: Citadel Genres

    #35

    What is one person's science fiction is another person's fantasy/ science fantasy.  Is Star Trek Post Accoplyptic, because it is after WWIII? 
    
    If we break those definitions down farther it just get ugly.  Nobody is going to like these definitions for longer than a week or two after we set them up.  We have seen the issues we have had with our existing categories and subcategories and those are generally concrete in nature... yet people still sort of pick haphazardly.  Given another set of Subjective Tags we will create a mess we have to clean up later.
    
    I am sorry I did not generate any expanded definitions for subcategories. I got distracted and busy.  Of course, I am not the only admin who can create these things.... and nobody else did it either.  I will work on it now and have some examples for you. 
    
    

36. Re: Citadel Genres

    #36

    Since the conversation has started on this, let me restate a couple options with additions.
    
    1. We do the SF tick box and leave the current category system and shoe horn SF into it. Optionally, which I think Moon mentioned, we can simply add a few categories to the current lists.
    1a We show only SF or Fantasy with the switch.
    1b Option 1a + we have a rather lenghty list of categories when viewing them both.
    
    2 We leave all the current categories as is. I make a new name field in the database for SF that will match the fantasy. So default would be fantasy category names listed, but when you do the switch it will change the names to the SF equivelant with the SF description of it. Only the category viewable name would change, not the category itself. Would filter as well when you do the switch, fantasy, SF, or SF + Fantasy (default).
    
    3We simply add a SF Major Category (Plots, Items, SF, ...) and add categories under it that would probably match the current categories now (Plots, Items, Lifeforms), but they would all be SF and not sortable beyond the main category.

37. Re: Citadel Genres

    #37

    2 clearly.
    
    The Citadel will stay outwardly what it is, with all categories still being the same, but there will be more power underneath. When turning upon Sci-Fi stuff, some subcategories will be named differently. A little playing around with design, making it searchable, and that's it.

38. Re: Citadel Genres

    #38

    I push for #1, simply adding more subcategories (robot, space ship, star ship, firearm, energy weapon...e tc)
    
    The idea is simplier, easier, and quicker to impliment.  It will require little to no clean up of existing posts. 
    
    Even if we "quest" science fiction posts, they are going to be fairly empty categories.
    
    The main reason, though everyone says Science Fiction! is great.  We have piddling few posts of that and supers and other genres.  It is not going to get much better. And science fiction entries tend to be very dependent on their genre.  What is appropriate for Blue Planet, won't be for Traveller or Cyberpunk 2020. So add some categories.

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