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To broach a difficult subject...
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To broach a difficult subject...
#1Strolen, I don't want to generate any bad feeling.
Well, fuck it, I do.
I wanna' get in a big fight over this.
Because I cannot stand by while people who I consider to be friends and colleagues are bulllied, insulted, and slandered. I cannot stand by while an individual openly flaunts the conventions of the Citadel and attempts to make it his own dictatorial little slice of the internet.
Strolen, will you please pay attention to the people who have helped you and basically become your Citadel? This has gone too far. You have got to do something about MoonHunter.
His main target has been Ancient Gamer. AG has done nothing but contribute to this site, has done nothing to irritate or ruin it, and makes (to my eye) quality posts. Yet MoonHunter openly antagonizes him, tells newcomers that AG is a loser, insults him for utilizing the site while he is at work, and insults his posts. AG now feels that he cannot post here, and is tired of coming to the site because of the invective that Moon throws his way.
Moon has attempted to bully and boss both Cheka Man and AG into voting certain ways, and informed them why their votes were "not right".
He has actually stolen posts from the forums and reposted them under his own name (no doubt in an attempt to spread info into the main site, but this is still not right).
He is antagonistic, egomaniacal, and haughty. He cannot abide by the fact that he might be wrong. He must believe that it is his job to tell us all how to vote and how to post, because he has apparently taken it upon himself to do it.
And, I will admit, that I am not selfless in making this plea. He has not attempted to do any of this to me, probably because he knows it'd be like battering his head against a brick wall. But as you know, Moon and I have butted heads before.
Strolen, I can't imagine that when you created this site, you intended to make this a place where people feel bullied, threatened, and insulted. I think it is time that you do something to reign in MoonHunter.
And to Moon: If you would like to offer anything in your defense, go right ahead. I'm sick and tired of your bullshit, frankly. You are not the Lord God, and I won't let you do it anymore. -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#2Sorry for the flowery language.
But I just think it isn't too much to say that since this is a free website, and not a Moonocracy, and we are just as legitimate in our being members of this site as he is, we would like NOT to be bullied around anymore. -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#3FUCK!
Subtlety be damned. Hasn't helped yet so here it is.
First, to give you a little history on me and the past few months:
First, I coded the citadel while I was on baby leave. I took a month off when my second child was born and I spent a great deal of that time in here coding the Citadel. After 2.0 was finished I owed my wife BIG. That was my choice. I have been limiting my time here severly to spend time with my new family in between my 11+ hour shifts at work. So spending any time here while at home takes a great bit away from that.
Second, I have a test on March 17 that I mentioned that will reform my ENTIRE future. If I don't make this rank it will be over 2 years before I gain my promotion vs. one year if I make it now. This promotion will also allow me to go overseas again for my last tour before I come back to retire. This is HUGE and I don't have time to spend on the site like I would like. This is why I have missed almost everything. I DO NOT read anything on the main site except for the few things that were brought up in that one forum. I rarely view any submissions. I come to the board, check the forum, post, and go back to my life. I CANNOT afford to mess this up.
So, if you thought I have been neglecting the place. Well, you are 100% right and I won't apologize for it.
I never thought of this as my Citadel. I always intended it to be a collaborative thing because the code only takes it so far, it takes a dynamic and dedicated community to make a good site and we have some of the best around. Because of that I never thought it would suffer for my absence. I took the job of critical bug fixer and let the place run as a community, which was the original intention anyway.
CP, I appreciate your bluntness, don't change, but if we can't deal with this together then this is not going to work. I am still not going to be around for a month or so and I am not sure me being here would really change anything anyway.
So let me first revisit a slightly ignored thread, and a large ball that I dropped, which was suppose to be _The Law of the Land_
http://www.strolen.com/guild/index.php/topic,2756.0.html
Let me also revisit the top two things on that list for those too lazy to actually visit the link.
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I will always respect the opinion of my fellow Strolenite.
-We are each unique and we cannot control each other's opinions. The best we can do is strive to understand them so that we can better accept them. There will be NO flaming or rude personal attacks against each other. We are very liberal with discussions but, if it gets personal, the comments will be instantly deleted by the moderators, no questions asked or explanation given. These are one of the few times that we will edit anything on the site. We take this VERY seriously. If somebody can't feel safe airing their opinion then all the work gone into the site is useless. We will strive to maintain a cordial and friendly environment at all times.
That said, this does not mean you cannot disagree, we expect that. It is very easy to be be critical of something without being rude. Make the comment productive and helpful while saying what you feel needs to be said. Simply saying something sucks or is cliche or some other scathing remark will be considered 'rude' and will most likely be removed. Tell how you feel, but do it in a constructive, friendly manner.
I will always vote the way I feel and not be swayed by popular opinion.
-Your vote is your own and you've earned it, use it how you wish. If everybody loves a submission that you think is just OK, then vote it just OK, that is your prerogative but understand that you will have explain yourself. Just voting and saying "Eh, it is ok" without explanation is not helpful and will stir up the ire of the Strolenites. If you explain yourself then at least we can agree to disagree, probably after a flurry of polite discussion.
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So simple and obvious yet, apparently, impossible. Oh, and let me see who didn't reply to this topic even though I sent a PM to everyone about it. OK, thanks for the support and another reason it died. The people it was meant for never responded to it.
Do I have to dictate? I won't even go difficult, just common sense and courtesy, that is all I would ask.
If I was the owner of this site and people actually listened to me I would direct the following:
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER do I EVER want to hear that any user has told another person that their vote was wrong, their opinion is wrong, or that what they say is wrong.
Everything is arbitrary, you could not prove, without a doubt, that any one opinion on the site is THE opinion. Therefore any opinion on any matter is just as important as any other opinion. You cannot tell somebody else what their opinion is. You can only reinforce your view, but not by attacking another user. Most of this and anything else I could say is in the above portion of The Code so I won't dwell on it. Duh, nobody is god, nobody knows everything, nobody knows better than anybody else. This MUST be understood. One simple word. Respect.
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER do I EVER want to hear that an admin has been rude to ANY other Strolenite for ANY reason.
Easier said than done, it happens. It is the way it happens and how it is taken that really matters. If you write something that could be construed as an insult or purposely belittle somebody then that is instantly innappropriate. I say admins in this case because doing this undermines your authority. If people see this side of you then that is what they think of from then on, respect is lost immediately! Admins are held to a higher standard and should set the example (period). Usually it makes the insulter look like an ass and breeds support for the one you think you are harming. I know this for a fact from the numerous PMs I have from multiple sources. More than most of you even know because I don't share PMs....and won't. One simple word. Respect.
Trying to think of more but, really, if those few things come together I can't think of a better way to make the place work...?!
I am going to post the Code of Ethics on the frontpage tonight. I have already burned most of my study time so I might as well ruin the rest. If we have to go back to the basics and play tattle tale then this is the point we are. Was going to explain it but you can simply read it when I post it on the index.
If you think this is all I have to say on the subject then understand that you are grossly mistaken. Many things that will be said don't need to be displayed in even this semi-private area.
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Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#4Naw, it isn't a matter of ignoring the Citadel... It just makes us appreciate you more. ;)
I just feel that it is time that I got stuff out on the table about my complaints towards Moon. -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#5To be fair, I've never had Moon (or anyone for that matter, besides the antichrist from a couple of years ago) do this sort of thing to me. To be fair, that might also be because I'd tend to ignore anyone who did. I can't say that I notice much, these days; I'm too stretched and too tired to really do my job as an admin properly. (And as for the Code of Conduct, I would assume I never replied because it got lost in the shuffle when I just mass-deleted my PM box when I came back; my bad, sorry. But I have nothing to add to it.) -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#6Okay, take a few days off and things get strange.
A couple of things here CP
1) In many of the things that have come up between AG and myself, we had talked about them in chat. He and I came to an understanding and he seemed not to have an issue. Then a week or so later, I find myself 'in trouble' for something that we resolved in that chat. Usually without talking with me again, about our 'non agreement'. Usually by writing a very passive aggressive PM, usually CCed to Strolen.
2) One of the issues in recent points was He decided to be 'funny' and mock my less than perfect post, by reposting the five things ( http://www.strolen.com/content.php?node=1272 ) . Yes the post was a little shorter than most of my posts. I was also unaware that there was a minimum size requirement. However his comments gave no advice or support on how to fix those comments. There was no low vote or try again. Nothing helpful about it.
3) AG also tends to be defensive about repsonses back to his opinions. He is of the opinion that creative writing is more important that useful content, and that many of my posts are a little flat. (no argument, some are.) He then will often go on and on about such things. Then I will often respond, which I thought was my right... if he can voice his opinion I can voice mine. He then gets defensive about such responses. He reposts, I respond, I thought that is why we had a reply function.
Also admins egging on with "fight, fight, fight", was perhaps not the best way to deal with the situation CP.
Such defensiveness, has, in my opinion has spilled over to other comments and posts. That is another issues to be addressed for another day.
Sure he votes lower on my posts than I think he should. We have discussed that in the past. Agreed to difference of opinion. Yet he seems to be upset by the fact that low votes do annoy me. He seems to think I actually have annomosity against him. He thinks we are having an 'issue' between us. Actually I blow most of it off.
(He also seems to be upset that I vote low on many of his posts (which to me seemed obvious since we are voting on different criteria). He thinks I am 'doing it on purpose' 'to get back at him for his low votes'. Not the case, we are scoring on different things.)
The part is that it was resolved between the two of us, then some time later, he brings it back up... throws it back at me, usually after talking with ever other admin on how he had been wronged (without discussing his continued issue with me in the intervening weeks). He usually has talked with Strolen or had others do it, rather than deal with me. That does bother me that he does not want to discuss things with me, but feels he must have others take care of it for him.
Sure I deleted some thread drift on a post (including the one where you posted 'fight, fight, fight' CP). Debates on writing styles... that span across the site... do not seem to make sense on an submission (might be better served in a forum post?). I have deleted wierd drifts on threads before because the drift added nothing to the submission.
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Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#7I just had to address those other points... (If you are just clicking new.. scroll up to the post above)
Yet MoonHunter openly antagonizes him?
Ummm. When?
Other than the difference of opinions on what constitutes a good post. If he is allowed to have opinions, am I?
*Tells newcomers that AG is a loser:
Never. First, I never call anyone a loser... not in my vocabulary. Why would I do such a thing? There is nothing to be gained by that. I would like to see that in the text. (And if it is there, it is spoofing.)
*insults him for utilizing the site while he is at work.
NEVER. Lies. How could I do that? I use the site while at work. I may be many things, but hypocrite is not one of them.
*Insults his posts.
Also never. There has never been an directed insult, unless difference of opinion is insulting... (And he is allowed to have an opinion and I am not?)
*AG now feels that he cannot post here, and is tired of coming to the site because of the invective that Moon throws his way.
This is very bizzare. He and I have had many great conversations about things over the last few months. Some of them in the last two weeks. There has been no invectives or catty comments or even disparaging remarks thrown his way. (And if it is there, it is spoofing.)
*Moon has attempted to bully and boss both Cheka Man and AG into voting certain ways, and informed them why their votes were "not right".
I posted a response that I thought their votes were unduely, almost unfairly, low and I voted higher in response (higher than I normally would). I made the mistake of simply saying that I was voting a bit higher to counter lower votes. ONCE. ONCE in one submission. MONTHS AGO. I got the stern PM (for actually explaining why I was voting the way I was) and have never done it again in post or in chat. (Any can all of you say that you have not voted a bit higher (or lower) than you might of if you had been the first post based on what others had been saying? )
(The Thrust of the PM, by the way, was that since I was seen as 'an important menber' that my opinions carried too much weight, and were seen as edicts and commands, rather than my opinions.)
*He has actually stolen posts from the forums and reposted them under his own name (no doubt in an attempt to spread info into the main site, but this is still not right). This had been addressed before. You might remember my public flogging for it a while back. Mia Culpa. If other Moderators had perhaps shared the burden of moving several thousand posts perhaps I would of A) made fewer mistakes when transfering data (my error rate was in the 1.5% range... and I thought all of those had been fixed B) been a little less protective of data integrety, and C) The one thread in question which I hijacked was an issue I thought had been resolved to everyone involved satisfaction.
And lets have a little history about that one shall we? AG did several item posts 'to combat munchkinism; by posting common, mundane items as posts on the citadel. You might remember these three: Long Sword, with 3 lines of description, and the two others. Echo, you CP, and some others mentioned that 'this was not the best thing to do'. He deleted the posts. He started a thread. Thus started the mundane items thread... which due to thread drift became mundane weapons worthy of submission posts. I did some edit (removing all the pretty catty remarks about his original mundane item posts) and fixed an initial header. Then yes, I did post it. That first post was nothing like the original thread. AG noticed it and mentioned it. We had a conversation about it in the chat and he was 'okay with it' (The exact wording was, 'So are you okay with it? Yes'). TWICE, we had this discussion. AFTER TALKING WITH ME IN THE CHAT, he tells Strolen that he is totally upset by this and wants the thread back. (There was much flogging going on in the forum, when I wasn't even looking at the forum... which made people more upset that I wasn't responding... yet nobody, not Strolen, nor AG, nor anyone who was reading it mentioned any of this in the Chat on the Citadel side when they saw me for the month or two this was going on. If it was that important, you think someone might of said... 'oh have you seen the thread in the moderator section' or 'why are you ignoring this?' )
He is antagonistic, egomaniacal, and haughty.
Haughty, yah that I can believe. Antagonistic and egomanical... no. But that could be your opinion.
He cannot abide by the fact that he might be wrong.
And you can? Give me proof that I am wrong, rather than your opinion on a subject and I will happily be wrong... and change my opinion. However, there is a good bet that I can throw some counter arguments your way.
He must believe that it is his job to tell us all how to vote and how to post, because he has apparently taken it upon himself to do it.
Once. Once. And the Issues had been already dealt with and not repeated. And the guide was to be useful for new posters.
And, I will admit, that I am not selfless in making this plea. He has not attempted to do any of this to me, probably because he knows it'd be like battering his head against a brick wall.
Actually, we have not this problem because almost all of the things you brought up didn't happen in my version of the universe.
But as you know, Moon and I have butted heads before.
With good difference of opinions and because of our radically different beliefs.
Strolen, I can't imagine that when you created this site, you intended to make this a place where people feel bullied, threatened, and insulted.
That line does insult me. The Pot calling Kettle black? Captain, you have done more than your fair share of bullying and insulting novice posters here. You have on many occasions gone beyond the line of tact and good taste when complaining about a post. Just because they are novices or do poorly, you think it is okay? (Yes, other moderators have discussed that over time... Yes, you have gotten better over time with this, but every now and again.. that old fire comes out. ) -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#8Hey, look, it is Valentine's day! Let's be merry and show how we like each other!
OK, maybe not quite. I have lost the half of a day with thinking about what to react on and what not. I also had to resist the temptation of locking the thread just for the hell of it. Anyway: now that AG has been used for this argument and for that and for a dozen of others by both sides, it would be proper to allow him speak on the topic... just give him the necessary time.
I refrain from commenting on this until then. -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#9To be perfectly honest, the only matter mentioned above that I do have knowledge of was the mundane weapons posting, and I think it was resolved to some sort of suitable comprimise (compromise being a solution that neither party is satisfied with, but works).
All joking aside, I think this is a serious matter. It has become increasingly rare that I see AG online (though my own habits have declined somewhat, though that is due more to improved connection speed than less time availible.) I hate that, but I think it would be even worse if this event escalated to the point that any of the above people were to forsake the Citadel. Each of the people above have made signifigant contributions that have had a profound impact on our development.
Strolen may be our king, but it is Moon who is the Chamberlain who makes sure everything is on a even keel. It was an absolutely massive amount of work he did to bring all of the old threads over to the new forum, a task that I was remiss in not assisting in. Moon is arguably the most patient with the newbies, giving them lengthy and thorough information on better posting and whatnot.
The Captain on the other hand displays an admirable lack of patience with crap, and doesnt fear to say so. I guess that would make the Penguin the Captain of the Guard. To be honest, sometimes I think that the Cap'n 'This sucks balls' responce to a post can be less intimidating that Moon's Courses in Gaming.
Now I don't know the nuts and bolts of the Citadel, don't know nothing bout no programmins goin on here. But I do know that AG had a hand in the programming designing thing.
Discrepancies in voting? Where are we, in Florida?
Everyone has a right to their opinion, and the right to share with anyone they see fit, but there should be no badgering of the voters. AG generally votes a point to a point and a half lower than most other votes I get on my submissions, that's fine because I know that he holds me to a different standard, and on the other hand Cheka Man just about HoH's and five-swords almost anything I post.
meh...I got lost -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#10'fight, fight, fight'
I thought that was hilarious, personally... :)
My point is simply that AG feels antagonized (and has told me so; I've thus far been his mouthpiece, basically), I feel that Moon has shown more than his share of haughtiness (the pot calls the kettle black, deal with it, missy), and I frequently feel that Moon seems to have a different understanding of how this Citadel works... I was under the impression that we were all equals here.
There isn't only *one* way to do things, Moon. I'm lobbying for respect for everyone.
I might be less inclined to take this as seriously if it were a member who I was less friendly with, rather than somebody who I regard as a friend. If, say, Dark Lord had brought these complaints to me rather than AG, I probably would have laughed at him. So if you think I've been trying to present myself as some kind of amazing paladin of Citadel purity, well, sorry for the misinformation.
And as for me antagonizing people... Yeah, I done it. Lock me up, officer.
Anyway, I agree with Manfred... Let's let AG say what he has to say, when he's ready. -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#11I am going to reply to this as soon as I am able. I am afraid MH has pushed it too far this time and I get dizzy spells whenever I read one of his comments or posts that refer to me. I did not mean to incite a riot or anything around here. I just told CP goodbye and wondered whether he knew a quality roleplaying site with less drama that I could frequent. He did not like that and after I explained to him why I am leaving, he said he would not stand for it.
So here we are. Now the troll is out in the sun, apparent for all to see. The question is now: Will it turn to stone and burst? I sure hope so. The troll has lived far longer than it should have.
I will reply to MoonHunter as soon as my nausea weakens or disappears. But MoonHunter, I want you to understand these two facts:
1. It hurts you more than you could imagine to speak of your fellow Strolenites like you sometimes do
2. I am out for a solution to the problems that curse the Citadel. I notice from your posts that you live in another reality than mine, but I do think you know that lately I have made a tremendous effort to broach our differences, including sending you private messages, CC'ed to Strolen, with a request for a cease-fire. I failed and when I was exposed to your behaviour as of late, I got really depressed. When I chatted with a friend (not CP) the other day, and that friend told me how infuriated the friend was when the friend read your words of ridicule pointed at me... Well, something broke inside me.
I am sad, exhausted, nauseous and sick of it all. I wish you would listen to reason. I will explain what I mean and comment your posts when I am up to the task. -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#12I actually am really confused by this entire occurance. I was under the impression that we had a good relationship. You requested a ceasefire when there was no war.
I have no ill will against you. I admit I was hurt that after you agreed about something in chat directly, and that you went behind my back and involved Strolen to reverse what you had agreed to, but that is just an aside. I thought that was over and behind us.
I would of thought you would of talked with me directly, without involving everyone. We have been in chat a number of times, giving you opportunity to communicate with me. You could of PMed me directly. You could of expressed your PERSONAL concerns. You didn't. Instead you choose to involve everyone, making for all the drama we are experiencing.
However, If you are going to present an criticism or opinion about mine, or anyones work really, you need to be prepared for rebuttle. In this case, those rebuttles are no more harsh or cruel than normal, or anything CP puts down. If I hurt your feelings, I am sorry, that was not my intent. If you wanted to discuss something about how posts should be graded or what makes a good post, there is ample and appropriate forum space here.. rather than deciding to have a run of thread drift on a submission.
Can you and I PM each other and diffuse this issue. Strolen is having an important time right now and does not need this on the site. If you don't, I will just leave until after Strolen has passed his testing. He does not need this drama right now and I DO NOT want to be the cause of more of it.
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Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#13I know I am not the most beloved person at the moment, but yes Nobody has hit it right on the head...
+ reply to the text above
I thought we were friends too MoonHunter. True, there was an uneasiness between us, wary and weary we were, but friends. Did you know that the reposting of "the tips to golden submissions" after your post was humour? I actually thought it rather funny... You did not view it as such. Perhaps the things you said were jokes too? I dunno. Perhaps we should refrain from joking about each other for a while? I think so.
I am at a critical juncture in my life right now, and I need to keep calm. Like Strolen I have a chance at the dream job. This thing has upset me more than I thought. Like I said: Something broke inside me when a friend commented on the situation. It was never my intention to involve others. I just fell apart.
There was one exception: I involved Strolen because you did things I had to react to as an admin, and I felt powerless next to you... Who was I but an upstart admin and I needed to tackle the Citadel impersonated, mr. Citadel Guru himself. I felt outgunned, outmatched and at a loss for what to do. There were other reasons too... Strolen is a no nonsense, blunt and stand up guy. He has the balls of Scrasamax and the tact of manfred... I was grasping for straws, for a solution to problems that were beyond me. Later, when I tried to make amends, I included him too. I thought it would brighten him up that his two trouble makers were talking again. There was no ill intention in this.
No one here is your enemy MoonHunter. Not CP, not me. I like you. I do not know how many times I must say that. But I do reserve the right to disagree with your actions. Even if we make amends today, a situation might arise tomorrow, and I won't promise you I won't deal with it. It is in my nature to react. That does not mean I think ill of you. It just means I am a stubborn guy. And that is why I thought about leaving. Because we two in one place is clearly a volatile mixture. And I want some peace. I want this job. But I also want to keep in touch with the wonderful people I met here... Right now I am at a loss for what to do.
We owe you big time over here. I just wish you would be a little less angry, and a lot more like a peer than a superior. We all know your prowess. We are all grateful for your presence and for what you have done for this place. You should not forget that in the middle of all this. Nothing is purely black or white.
I am sorry, but I have to quit now. I have not calmed down yet. I am still emotional and I have sole responsibility for the kids this week. I need to be a good dad and that is why I cannot post here for a while. I recognize the need to say something though. That is why I posted. I am sorry if this does not explain enough, but it will have to suffice for the time being.
And Scrasamax: I am trying to vote based on the Citadel's new standards. We have awesome stuff coming in here nowadays. Incredibly skilled newcomers. I still hand you a 5 way more often than I hand it to most others. The only ones I am too kind with are newcomers on their first post, and Cheka Man. I know I hurt you in the past, and for that I am sorry. I was an arsehole I guess. An elitist arsehole. Way too many GM's are that. I am referring to the comment about your submission "not touching anything in me". That was low and I admit it.
I like you a bunch, you silly Texan.
MoonHunter, Scrasamax, CP and the rest of this honoured assembly: Excuse me, for now I take a holiday from this place. I will stop by the chat once in a while, but that is all. I promised some people to do that.
My absence is not equivalent of my departure. Not yet at least. -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#14Yes, let's all take a break.
Everybody's working for a promotion, or everybody's all pissed off.
Frankly, I feel like an ass, and AG seems emotionally drained.
Screw it, I'm goin' to Canada. -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#15No. I think you did us all a favour. You are not an ass. You are the Citadel Penguin. We need you around here.
Perhaps now there can be peace. I'd like that.
This does not mean I yield in any way. It only means that I recognize the dual, or even multiple nuances of this matter. There is no absolute truth, only our own respective versions of it. You will get my versions of it at a later stage, although I will downplay MH's and mine old history. I feel that has already been settled and I will only touch upon it as a matter of historical reference. So be it if only his version is the version that stands. This is not a game to be won, not a battle to be fought. This is about peace, reconciliation and peaceful solving of conflict.
I hope I can make this into something else than your typical Arab vs. Western screaming council. -
Re: To broach a difficult subject...
#16
There is no absolute truth, only our own respective versions of it.
Very post-modern.