Forums

1. Forums

   #1

   OK, we are not getting rid of the forums in V2.0 but most of the good stuff will be (is being) taken out and inputted.
   
   There is currently the debate going on about what makes a Citadel Submissoin and what should be left as a post in the forum.
   
   So what should we use the forum for? RPing and brainless chatter, yes of course, but what about the top forums that we have now. Flesh it Out, Idea Scrolls, etc. Not all of that should be moved to the main Citadel but what do you do with the leftovers?
   
   What kind of posting do you want to see there? How do we want to structure it? How do we divide what constitues a forum post and a Citadel Submission?
   
   The forum will continue to get pruned through the end of the year, but figured I would throw this out there before the changeover and it gets busy and see if there are any thoughts on it.
   
   It is confusing now with multiple ideas on how it goes. I don't want the changeover to happen and then people are posting in the forum and are told, like they should know, that that kind of post should go in the Citadel. And others post things in the Citadel that should go into forum. With conflicting ideas on this we can't show a unified front. Not expecting a standard, but a set of guidelines that can help us through it.

2. Re: Forums

   #2

   We should definitely keep Flesh it out! It is indispensable!
   
   As for the forums... That comment about "not getting rid of yet" scared me. Had it not been for the forums I would never have joined this site.
   
   My take:
   Main Site:
   As now + Worlds
   
   Forums:
   Flesh it out
   Play By Forum
   Greetings threads
   Citadel Tavern / Inane Natter (Possibly merged) - Some might think this to be crap, but a bonding of sorts happen in there. True, the less patient among us migh think "idiots" or something equally harsh, but there will always be "grumpy rumblers". Those threads define us a society, even the more nonsensical ones :)
   Myths and Rumours (No true replacement for those on the main site, except for World related myths and rumours (when V2.1 arrives))
   Admin Forums (Merge with Web Development Forum)
   Bugs and suggestions forum
   
   Kill everything else (AFTER we have transferred our submissions)
   
   
   Having said that: We should create a forum "Dice Forum" for the sub culture of dice worshippers :p
   
   

3. Re: Forums

   #3

   I like where AG went with this.
   
   A couple of things to do different
   Flesh it out (and the rest of the idea guild)... really needs to go away. If it even vaguely looks like a post it should go on the main site (and be stuffed in its sand box until ready). That brings us to
   
   0) The Basement: This is all the stuff from the V1.0 Ideas Guild Area that is not transfered over to the main site. Mostly this is stuff that is too hard to categorize or is too incomplete to transfer. This should be the very bottom section, under the natter. It will is also where useful but odd threads from the forum go to be archived. The Basement is a better name than "The forum full of things MoonHunter did not want to move." By the way, the rest of you can move stuff too... I do not want a monopoloy on this task. 
   
   1) The Greetings Thread should have an old Greetings and New Greetings. In new greetings thread we should give examples of USEFUL "HI" threads. You know, things that tell us about you, what kind of gaming you do, and so on.
   
   2) Question Pit: This is for all those odd game related questions such as "What do I need for a world", "How many days does it take to travel X distance", How strong is a spider? and other odd questions. Our expert staff will get on those right away. Given our population, answers will be given.
   
   3) Challange Zone. These are not quests, but things we want you to do. I challange someone to put in a non standard necromancer. If you will post a society, I will post something in the dungeon or topic of your choice. I just opened a codex about XXXX, can will fill it up?
   
   Note: Myths and Rumors can be moved as system posts. I just have not gotten to doing that yet. Myths are systems posts. Rumors are plots or plot ideas.  Some of the other threads in there, like the News of the World for gaming, Personal Ads, etc, they can be moved to Tavern.
   
   4) We should have a game and fan related area (tavern) (computer can be included in this, as we are, by default, computer aspected gaming), a non game related area (pull from tavern), and the personal opinion area (natterland)
   
   Admin land and play by forum are okay as is, though we could purge the unfinished game archive.
   
   Settings (we don't call them worlds because they are not always worlds, just big portions of them) will move eventually.
   
   

4. Re: Forums

   #4

   Books and Movies Review type thing. ((see AG's Post))

5. Re: Forums

   #5

   
   Idea Guild
   
   Uh....Help?
       I think this one should stay for the time being. It overlaps a bit with Ideas-Suggestions but fills a niche that the new site and its oddities has created
   
   Greetings Traveler
       Pretty much unchanged. I understand that Moon wants two of these, but I think one fits the bill. An improved READ ME FIRST type thing with requested intro info is a good idea.
   
   Flesh it Out
       I agree with AG that this is still pretty indispensible. While the Citadel has the feature for it, it really doesn't come close to the ease and familiarity that the forum provides. It is just easier in a forum to throw out ideas and get replies. The Citadel makes it harder and feels more structured so might deviate from the ease of use that the forum can provide. This would be Moonhunter's Question Pit. The description will change to be more question orientated but allow for some of the old Flesh it Out type stuff.
   
   Court of Challenges
       Challenge Zone. Name might still need improvement but I was anti-zone. I like Moon's idea for this one.
   
   Citadel Guildmembers
   
   News and Announcements
       Basically unchanged...although I probably need to do the frontpage duplication like I had before.
   
   Sacred Seal
       Is this dead? My fault if it is but I really like this idea.
   
   Ideas-Suggestions-Bug Reports
       Same
   
   Extraneous Voices of Picayune
   
   Citadel Tavern
       Still our normal topic oriented stuff - non game related
   
   Gamers Warren
       This is the game related topics, thoughts, ramblings
   
   Books and Movies Tomes and Illusions
       AG's suggestion for book and movie discussion
   
   Websites of Interest
       Maybe start organizing the links into something we can find.
   
   Cavern of Inane Natter
       Same as it is now.
   
   Play by forum can do as it will. That needs some kind of rework but it is self contained so inconsequential at the moment.
   
   Basement is fine too. Dungeon more like it.
   
   
   
   All the other forums will be admin and/or unviewable to the 'common folk' so didn't bother trying to figure them out.
   
   Can use this as a stepping stone for the final version. Change, add, and rearrange as you will.

6. Re: Forums

   #6

   Websites and Sacred Seal do resemble each other... What about awarding a sacred seal to websites who are rated highly in the Websites section?
   
   Yes, that means each website has to get its own thread...

7. Re: Forums

   #7

   1) Introduction, actually MoonHunter only wanted one of these, with useful introduction examples so new members might do more than say hi.
   
   2) Change its name to something other than flesh it out.
   Community Asistance zone. Reference Section. or a personal favorite, Sagely Advice. It is for where you have a question on how to do somethign, like How many days does it take to do this? How would you introduce a new continent to your campaign? How do you do X, Would this work as a post? and so on. If we leave it as Flesh it out, we will once again have "posts" here that are not transfered to the front. 
   
   We have a number of questions and such we can transfer out of the basement to this section to seed this section. 
   
   3) The Lists is a name option. (The list is how they handled Tournaments and Challanges in days of old) 
   Court of Challanges should also include announcements of new scrolls and codices you made.  What ever name you want.
   
   4) I don't see the point of breaking the tavern up into three spots (non-game, game, and movie/review), but okay, if it makes people happy.
   
   5) I thought web sites were going on the main site as a category, once we came up with an organization for them. So why make them a seperate set of threads and have to move the data two to three times? 
   
   5a) Moview and Book reviews were part of the same?
   
   6) Can you make me a basement now, so I move things that I am positively not going to move down there. If any of you want to transfer things out of the Basement, feel free. I am probably not going to move those threads.
   
   
   

8. Re: Forums

   #8

   I was only breaking the tavern up as per your #4 in your first post in this thread.
   
   The links will go on the main site as a category, but I figure I will get around to that only after I do the Worlds so we are talking a little bit of time. In the meantime....
   
   Yes, was going to combine Movies and Books unless you think it will be so inundated...
   
   Basement. Stuff in the basement is just disappearing forever? Stuff that doesn't fit in the new categories? Or stuff that you are just getting out of the way for now? Why do they have to be moved out of their currently appropriate forums?

9. Re: Forums

   #9

   RE: About breaking up the Tavern.  Oops. Never mind. I am just being confused. I need more sleep.
   
   Note: sorry for the length of this post.
   
   First: Settings and existings worlds are an aside. Myths and Rumors will be moved sometime soon as systems, articles, and stuff into the ideas. I am just not there yet. It is going to be done sooner than later. My old estimates were excessive, there is light at the end of the tunnel (as I see it).
   
   Returning to the regularly scheduled post...
   
   Basement. Stuff in the basement is just disappearing forever? Stuff that doesn't fit in the new categories? Or stuff that you are just getting out of the way for now? Why do they have to be moved out of their currently appropriate forums?
   
   If we leave the current idea guild forums intact, there is no real incentive to actually "go the extra mile" and post it in the citadel. Good posts will be idle there, buried under the newer posts, unsearchable and unindexed. Less Good posts (and bad posts), and there will be a lot of those if history is any guidline, will occur as well. Very few authors have taken things from the forum that they have been working on and transfered them forward (when appropriate categories were available).
   
   If the good submission post happens, their authors will often be happy to leave their work there. Some are done with them. Others are not coming back to the site. That leaves us with stuff that should be in the Citadel in the forum.
   
   Then we have the same issues that plagued the old citadel. Those issues helped motivate Strolen to build the new one. You know searchable, linkable, expandable, votable/ critiquable.
   
   Unless the admins are going to go through and transfer these over every few months, (which is a hugely tedious task I can assure you from personal experience), they are going to wallow in the back of a forum. Which can be a shame.
   
   Plus then we have the issue that unless the member is an admin or mod, that member will "take credit" for all the ideas they had in their reformated post... leaving the contributors uncredited. That will generate hurt feeling and other effects.
   
   If bad submission posts happen, well ... they just clog the forum. The good gets lost in the cloud of bad. (Don't believe me, think about where some of the posts were in the forum a few weeks ago.) At least on the Citadel, we can rate them, debate them, and probably challange them. They will be dealt with.
   
   Then there are the merely good submission posts. There thing gets tricky and grey.
   
   Most of the threads, not going to the Sage Advice area (and there are a quite a few that will), that will be left after the transfer over will be in one of the following categories.
   
   1) Stuff that does not meet "The High Level of Quality" that Strolen insisted upon before transfering over. You said, "don't transfer everything". So I am transfering everything that seems to meet that level. Things below that level of quality are necessarily bad, just not as good. I would hate to throw all the merely good stuff out. There are some good idea kernels in there.
   
   2) Totally incomplete. Usually abandoned by their creator, often in mid thought. Some have really good ideas, others are just *shudder*. Someone will have to do a great deal of editing and stewardship to make the submission really useful. However, it might be inspirational or useful to someone.
   
   3) Hard to categorize or hard to reformat. Many of these threads need to be reworked and edited, and some new transitional material added. (I have helped round out the edges of a number of submissions, and the little things take a great deal of effort). In most of these cases, usually two or more submissions will emerge from these threads. Someday, a butterfly or four will emerge from each cocoon, when someone wants to invest the time and effort into it. It might be me. It might be someone else. It might never happen.
   
   4) Stuff that other admins said they were going to deal with (Mostly dungeon stuff, traps and puzzles. Thank you Manfred).
   
   5) Stuff their owners said, "Don't transfer it, I don't want to see that any more".
   
   6) The truly awful. There is still some of that there. Some of the really, really awful got deleted as v2.0 was looming on the horizon. I thought there might be an automatic transfer somehow (a totally naive dream I realize) and that crap was not going anywhere. So now only a small amount (based on percentage) of the really awful and truly awful remains.
   
   The Basement is there to keep these things in trust for future members (and admins/ mods). They can mine of basement for ideas. New threads can be moved there. Locations that need work can be moved there eventually.
   
   For today, the basement is there for other moderators and admins to pull up stuff that they think is good enough or that they want to invest the time and effort into, to make it a worthy submission.
   
   However, for now, the existing "Flesh it Out", "Idea Scroll", and "Myths and Rumors" will just confuse the new members. They need to focus on posting ideas on the Citadel, not the forums. The forums are for community and assistance. The new forum categories are for questions to be answered (Can I write a submission in the first person? How did they make X in earlier times? Why do elves have pointed ears?). If we leave the old forum categories up, they will look at them and be drawn away from the Citadel, where we want them to focus. They will wonder why they are not posting there. This will block new posts, as they mess with the forum instead of going with the "Create a submission and keep it in the working box (viewable normally)" and have people make comments on it (which would be posted in the challange zone... I am building a new race, I want everyone to help. I challange CP, MH, and Strolen to add something I have missed to the post...). Or "I am doing a New Take, check it."
   
   Settings and the uber settings (Worlds) are going to confuse them a bit as well, so I hope 1.2 with that piece of goodness will be coming sooner than Lockmar did. But most people will realize the difference between them and submissions. (and that there is not setting section). They can even start linking things back to these.
   
   So please, please, make a basement. Let us move these things into storage where we can then work on them at our leisure, where dedicated people can search through, and so we can get on with the business of getting new members to fill the v2.0 Citadel with cool new stuff.
   

10. Re: Forums

    #10

    Thoughts so far:
    Well, the "Town Crier" forum seems to function perfectly. So far it does not generate much traffic, but at least a couple of the admins see it and give it a go (We admins should really make an effort for the community! C'mon the rest of you). Some users also take advantage of it.
    
    The "Fields of Challenge" forum has not been a particular success. The users primarily come here to submit their own stuff and get some ideas. I guess joining other peoples' projects is not what everyone are dreaming about. Perhaps there is some way to stimulate the use of and response to this forum?

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