Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#1

OK, we need to get together and decide how we are going to Moderate V2.0 a little bit.

We need fairly firm guidelines on what we will allow into the main section of the Citadel. Not many rules, but a couple die hard guidlines that are no brainers.

No Unfinished Submissions
This should go without saying. If it is unfinished, there are conditions the author can put it in. In Work (something or another) but it definately should not make the main site.

Any Posts Asking For Suggestions/Help On Anything
The Citadel is a place for answers, not questions. Again, we have a "Request Advice" option that can be used for this. Otherwise it needs to go into the forum or stay in the In Work section.

Those are two obvious ones I think.

Are there more that we can add to the list?

Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#2

If it looks like a post, it should go into the Citadel. We do need to thake the good and the bad (and deal with them appropriately).

Things like this should NOT GO IN THE FORUM for one of two things will happen.

1) It will sit there like a lump and do nothing but clutter the forum up. There is no mechanism or process to delete annoying posts.

2) If it is actually worked on and improved we get a&b
2a) It will sit there and never get moved into the citadel because the writer will never need to do it. So that leaves the onus upon moderators... and see #1

2b) There will be two posts duplicating each other, one in the forum and one in the Citadel. And that leaves a lump in the forum, see #1

Unless we want DILLIGENT FORUM MODERATORSHIP, which nobody wants (and nobody wants to do... even anal old me), if it looks like it could be a Citadel Post, it should go in the front page (in people's working/ need help section.

This will mean a change in our paradigm. This means we do not bag on such posts, despite the sport we take in it, it means you find something incomplete or just that bad... edit it to the member's working space and slap a Nobody can see it/ or the IN WORK REQUEST ADVICE (which in my mind is better). If it is "complete" and you find it unredeemable, kiss of death is a final end for it.

Of course, eventually much crap will then be tucked into people's in work request advice space... and that should be purged from time to time... especially for people that have not logged on in many a year. Thus we at least have the occasional dilligent moderatorship and nobody much sees the dirty laundry.

Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#3

Dilligent forum moderatorship is bad. Bad, bad, bad. I appointed my rules lawyer to be forum moderator once... That proved to be a huuuuuuge mistake!

Now some suggestions:

-Irrelevant submissions must die (Russian wives, h4Xxst0r crap, spam, etc)

-submissions whose total score is below 2, should be MOVED (not deleted) to a "stubs" or "fledgling submissions" forum. (Suggestion: Then the author can improve the post and transfer it back to the main site (clearing its low score))

-Stolen material must be removed (Drizzt Do'Urden clones, Neo clones, AD&D rip offs, WoD rip offs, etc...). Of course inspiration is something entirely else than ripping off. Everybody gets inspiration from somewhere, even authors. (Suggestion: Maybe we should try to google for matches on the net once in a while? Especially with newcomers, to check if they have borrowed something :) (Remember that they might actually borrow their own stuff from another site)

Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#4

-Irrelevant submissions must die (Russian wives, h4Xxst0r crap, spam, etc)

We do that anyways, almost by reflex. That isn't a change of policy. We would delete those, rather than give them the kiss of death.

-submissions whose total score is below 2, should be MOVED (not deleted) to a "stubs" or "fledgling submissions" forum. (Suggestion: Then the author can improve the post and transfer it back to the main site (clearing its low score))

We tend to remove those, but we still have a couple of them around. Check the data base... they are still there.

-Stolen material must be removed (Drizzt Do'Urden clones, Neo clones, AD&D rip offs, WoD rip offs, etc...). Of course inspiration is something entirely else than ripping off. Everybody gets inspiration from somewhere, even authors. (Suggestion: Maybe we should try to google for matches on the net once in a while? Especially with newcomers, to check if they have borrowed something :) (Remember that they might actually borrow their own stuff from another site)

We tend to mock and low rank such rip offs. Thus it falls under the second category. Actually we tend to rate them so low, they get auto deleted (kiss of death function). We can normally tell if someone is ripping something off, as their language and tone change. Not always.

One question though: Who is volunteering to google new posts?

Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#5

If it looks like a post, it should go into the Citadel. We do need to thake the good and the bad (and deal with them appropriately).

Things like this should NOT GO IN THE FORUM for one of two things will happen.

1) It will sit there like a lump and do nothing but clutter the forum up. There is no mechanism or process to delete annoying posts.

2) If it is actually worked on and improved we get a&b
2a) It will sit there and never get moved into the citadel because the writer will never need to do it. So that leaves the onus upon moderators... and see #1

A post does not a submission make!

This is where we disagree. My thought is that I am keeping the forum specifically so that many things like that won't make it into the Citadel. Better sitting in a visible lump in the forum that hidden amongst 100's of other posts in the In Work section. The forum is just better at that kind of thing.

Citadel: Two Categorys
In Work - request advice
In Work - public

Now if eveybody worked on their stuff in the Citadel then both of them would be just one huge list. No real categorization, no nothing, because the Citadel wasn't built for that. I would have to restructure everything and have a "Finished Submission" section and an "IN work" section of the citadel. NO, we aren't at that point yet. Maybe on V3.0. Might even be a good idea, but at the moment it just won't work.

Forum: Limitless categories
We can have a forum on each main category, or any other way you want to divide them.
my point being you can put them somewhere where they can be found and bumped in an organized manner, depending on your interest, instead of a single huge list like in the Citadel.

And there is nothing wrong with duplicates, if the forum shows the process of thought and the Citadel shows the finished form...they are not really duplicates and they both served their specific purpose. They would be complementary if anything I think, not mutually exclusive.

That was why I only had two rules for the Citadel, the rest is just filler to help us but those first two things I wrote are my visions for the Citadel.

The Citadel is to work WITH ideas, not a place to work ON them or to create them.

-If you have a beginning of an idea and don't know what to do with it, that goes in the forum.
-If you have a solid idea but want help fleshing it out to be useful, that goes in the forum.
-If you have a full idea and it is pretty much set you just need help/suggestions on a few parts of it, now THAT can go in the Citadel in the help me. The "Help Me" should be for posts on the verge of being submitted and the author just wants that last bit of advice before he goes public.

The forum is still the _work space_ for creation. The Citadel is a _holding place_ for polished or almost polished things. The format is just not condusive to a collaborative idea workshop, the forum is. That is what I want the forum to be used for. Once the idea takes shape inthe forum, clean it up and post it as a submission and link back to the forum and the discussion that got you there if you must. But don't use the Citadel as the place to build you ideas.

I don't want ANY unfinished submissions seeing the light of day in the Main Citadel.

You should be going to the Citadel for ideas, not going there to help or get help on ideas.

We can define this better on the Citadel and in the forums when we come to an agreement.

Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#6

-submissions whose total score is below 2, should be MOVED (not deleted) to a "stubs" or "fledgling submissions" forum. (Suggestion: Then the author can improve the post and transfer it back to the main site (clearing its low score))

I don't know. If it is a solid idea, just a bad one, then I don't have any problem leaving a bad submission up. We can't have all 3 and above submissions, have to have the range. Ylorea mentioned somewhere that every idea (as long as it is a full idea) can be useful to the right person. She had used many lower ranking ones because the idea might have been solid, just the execution was poor.

I disagree with a blanket rule like this.

If the submission is absolute crap, then remove it (set condition to "Requires Edit"), that is fine, but if it is crap but has an actual idea in it, then it needs to stay.

Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#7

I can do it on an irregular basis. I already do it from time to time.

As for the rest: I know they are self explanatory, but they should mentioned in this debate. Splitting hairs might be annoying, but oversights because "it is so obvious" is unforgivable.

Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#8

What about admin fields of responsibility?
Some admins flush the user DB from time to time
Some admins do random checks of violated copyrights and so on
All admins delete spam and ban hackers
etc

And one more thing:

The Citadel is to work WITH ideas, not a place to work ON them or to create them.

-If you have a beginning of an idea and don't know what to do with it, that goes in the forum.
-If you have a solid idea but want help fleshing it out to be useful, that goes in the forum.
-If you have a full idea and it is pretty much set you just need help/suggestions on a few parts of it, now THAT can go in the Citadel in the help me. The "Help Me" should be for posts on the verge of being submitted and the author just wants that last bit of advice before he goes public

Well, I have used the "in Work" section extensively when I moved over finished submissions that either need an encoding make over or I am simply not pleased with.

As for campaigns... You know: They require quite some time to make. Would you rather that they were posted in the forums until I was ready to finish all of it?

Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#9

My intention of that was:

If you are building/working on something ALONE that you intend to submit. Citadel or forum

If you are putting together something that is complete, you just aren't sure about one or two things and you would like somebody to read it before it goes public. Citadel or forum.

If you are building/working on something that you would like other people's help with. Forum

If you have an idea for a list of stuff and you want other people to help you add to the list. Forum

If you have an idea for a list of stuff and you already have quite a few things to put into it to give it a solid start and to help motivate others to contribute Citadel Scroll or forum.

I think we need more of these scenerios for the Citadel Explained Area.

Re: Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#10

This thread may quickly become relative again soon. Treat it like it just happened or is still going on.

Thoughts?

Re: Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#11

If you are building/working on something ALONE that you intend to submit. Citadel or forum

Citadel if you're working on it alone, that is what the in work private/unviewable area is for after all, as soon as you post it in the forums then you're going to get feedback and not be working on it alone anymore eh?

If you are putting together something that is complete, you just aren't sure about one or two things and you would like somebody to read it before it goes public. Citadel or forum.

Citadel in the "In work advice requested area" imho, then maybe let the creator put a link to it on the forums asking for people to take a look. Much less clutter on the forums that way and all the comment and feedback on the piece in question is organized neatly for the user by default.

If you are building/working on something that you would like other people's help with. Forum

That makes sense, given the forum is a good place for everyone to contribute to a piece on.

If you have an idea for a list of stuff and you want other people to help you add to the list. Forum

By list I assume you mean stuff like incomplete 30's lists? This makes sense to put on the forums and would work well there. (I think the croc list started on the forums and grew into it's own sub in time?)

If you have an idea for a list of stuff and you already have quite a few things to put into it to give it a solid start and to help motivate others to contribute Citadel Scroll or forum.

Citadel scroll would be better, since it gives people a chance to contribute and earn xp while doing so as well as gives it more publicity being up on the main site rather then the forums.

Re: Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#12

I bumped this in my thought of removing "Request Advice" from the Citadel. Still not sure how to handle it all or how far I want to go with that.

Forums used to be a hotspot of random activity and idea melding. When we moved to the Citadel we lost much of that freeform, easily given thoughts and brainstorming. In the Citadel it mostly stagnates as people are less apt to give feedback or go on random tangents or tirades. The forum is the perfect vehicle for the freedom of posting a thought on something. I wanted to try and get that freedom of idea exchange back a bit and I think the forum is the way to do it.

At least that was my reasoning. So these old thoughts when we moved to 2.0 are still applicable today. I appreciate your input and agree with it. Just unsure where to go and how to do it at the moment...

Re: Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#13

Perhaps one way to encourage more idea melding would be to offer up a random weekly "In work advice requested" sub for people to comment on?

It would be like the random daily highlight except it would be a single sub and last for a week so people would be able to focus on the single sub for a few days and help provide longer term feedback to turn it into a quality sub.

Edit: If seven days is too long perhaps every five or three days a new in work sub could be offered?

Re: Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#14

"Project of the Week?"

Re: Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#15

Aye exactly, something to encourage people to give the advice requested posts some attention. (Catchy name btw)

Re: Admin Discussion for V2.0 Moderation

#16

I have NEVER looked at Request Advice. NEVER helped anyone having a sub under it.
I have OFTEN looked at Forum posts. OFTEN helped people building subs in the forum.

It may just be me.

But IMHO the main citadel is for finished posts. The forum is for creation and collaboration.

Maybe I just live in the old days.