About the non game-specific -thing

#1

Yeah. I'd appreciate it, that this would even be considered and if nobody wouldn't get angry. But the truth is that i'm getting pretty bored with the 'this is a non game-specific site. Don't use any rules in your item/setting/character etc.' If someone uses a lot of his or her time to do a good item to be added here, and it uses D&D or any other rulesystem to be a GUIDING line and then he just gets to see a comment, which reads 'this is a non game-specific site.' You guys, you can always convert these rules, I think that they are supposed to be only guiding, not to be the absolute form, that it MUST be used.

Yes, I know that there are many problems with using rules in your description, but I, for one don't like to tell in a description that "this weapon does a bit more damage" without explaining it somehow with rules. So, if you put both the non game-specific description and then explain it with some rules, wouldn't it be okay? Because I'm really getting sick with the comment, that it's bad to use rules in your idea.

Hope you get something out of this.

About the non game-specific -thing

#2

I take your point, Taxus. It is true that a good and original item should be praised regardless of how its details are expressed. Personally I don't mind if people say, for example, that a potion does 1Hp of damage per turn: it is easily convertible to other systems. However most of the posts which are criticised on the grounds of system-specificity do not fall into this category.

The majority of these posts are unoriginal, where people simply post the vital statistics of their favourite character or item and not much more.

Also, it is arduous to trail through a sequence of numbers and abbreviations and is not very enlightening as to the personality of the character. For example, would you rather read:

"Armelius Clot, Half-elven ranger, Chaotic Good.
STR:17,WIS:14,DEX:16;CON:15;INT:4;CHA:18
He was brought up by a bear in the forest.
He seeks to kill all orcs."

or

"Armelius has always been averse to authority. It's probably something to do with the way he was brought up, by a bear in the woods, away from the confines of human society, where only common sense and good luck could be relied upon. He developed enormously strong muscles and is as agile as a cat. Since he's never been educated in the ways of civilisation he cannot read or write, etc..."

Losing the stats forces you to explain his characteristics in greater detail, thereby giving the character more life.

Many people believe that D&D is the only system of roleplaying because it's the only one to which they've ever been exposed. That's not true: there are at least three major incarnations of AD&D with entirely different rule systems, not to mention countless other equally good (and in some cases better) systems, so it is limiting to base a global roleplaying website on a single system. There is no such system in the freeform area of the site which is so popular now, so why do people feel the need to bring specificity to the submissions database?

I agree the comments can beome a bit wearing, but not as wearing as a garbled itemful of meaningless stats.

ephe!

About the non game-specific -thing

#3

Of course we would consider it, Taxus. Why would we be angry?
And why does our "non-system" rule make you "bored"? I don't really understand.

About the non game-specific -thing

#4

I haven't been reading many posts lately but I think I understand the problem you are seeing. I usually try and clean up the comments on items that are not constructive in nature. There is no reason for a comment that simply says "Don't use stats."

The point is not that we can't convert the stats if it is a stat heavy submission. The problem is that if you successfully describe the submission, the stats become meaningless and detract from the central idea of the submission in the first place. If all it does is more damage then it is probably not something we are going to be impressed with even if stats are added. We are looking for new ideas, creative kick starts, new ways of looking for things not items that do 3d6 of damage.

But to the crux of the problem. Stat free. I discussed it briefly in the Guidlines of the site but the main focus of the site is idea generation. I don't necessarily want something that you can print out and use directly in the game. There are plenty of other sites out there that have perfectly fine fully statisticalized characters for regergitation.

What I want for this site is the meat of these character sheets without all the unnecessary complications of game specific stats. I think Eph put it wonderfully in his post. I want the idea behind the character, not the numbers for the character. Any DM can whip out some stats in a few minutes with the proper motivation, it is the central idea, uniqueness, and idea that starts the motivation that is important.

That said I also have no problem with the stats being listed *after* the full description of the character. They need to be in a consolidated form so they don't overwhelm the actual description though. But really, once the submission is properly documented, the stats are pretty useless.

So, overall, yes, it is inappropriate to get comments about the stats if that is the only opinion given. No matter what the system a few stats are not going to hurt an item. I have been and will be cleaning up the comments so that only those with actual substance associated with the submission are left

And I would like to push this thought towards the admins of the board again as well. Don't be bashful about deleting useless comments, badgering comments, or rude posts.

My final thought. If there are stats in a submission but they are tastefully intertwined into a fully fleshed out submission, I doubt I would have a problem with it. I DO NOT want this site to turn into a holding yard for stats though. Other sites do it and if the submission is like that then it is better off somewhere else where it can be appreciated for that.

But, I want ideas!

Something I can take and shape for my own. You may notice that many of my comments on submissions take the idea given and warp it or extend on it. I can't think of many things I would take fully and use as they are. *That* is why I made the site, to share ideas for creative people to look at and get some inspiration. Stats detract from this because this is not the purpose of what I am doing here.

Taxus... how about a counter example

#5

By the way, we are not mad about this. We just are confused why you don't see the wisdom of it.

Take this example item post....

Kiano

This is a 5k3 katana with the abilities of spirit strike and sever binding.

I can include this huge history and colorful additions, like K+1 if you are members of the Scorpion Clan. From the story you will get that the sword is dangerous and can free spirit, and can be used with honor by the Scorpions (who ever they are).

This is from a game you probably don't play. It is from L5R where Katana are 3k2 (if memory serves). You have no idea that I have just posted the DnD equivalent of a 1d8 +5/+8 sword that kills non material things dead and will dispell any magik based on spirits (which is all magic in its home environment).

I could post weapons with Corps rankings, A C&S rating (R3+2), or a mere 3d6+2K +2stunX effect desolid w/ linked 12d6 dispell (no range 0 end) Katana(which in hero system is hugely deadly attack with strength adds and an slightly above average dispell). And do you know what 6d6 of move vs spirit will do in Duel? Even with the descriptions attached to the given weapons, the numbers become useless to you unless you are a native player of that game (or are more than passing familiar). (Hence the reason most people who own gurps background books eventually get the main book).

It is not that we don't understand the D20, Linga Franca of the gaming world. It is just that we do not want to be limited to a d20 framework, especially when most of us (I believe) are not using said system. I could post items for Midnight (a cool D20 setting) that just won't work for general AD&D players. They use the same mechanics, but the story behind them will be totally uncomprehesible for you (in addition to the rules, item requires you to be a lv3 channeller?). In addition the damage that a normal AD&D game generates is only like half again or even twice of what you can generate in Midnight. 2d6 fireblast might be chump change in your AD&D world, but that is a HUGE fireball in the Midnight setting.

The items/ characters/ et al mechanics we create may or may not be appropriate for your game world or game system. So we only post up ideas. It is up to you to make the mechanics that fit your campaign/ game system. So, the firewand that shoot dragon fire will shoot 9d6 in your campaign, while it will shoot 3d8 in my soon to be run Midnight campaign. If you don't like the item to have certain abilities that the write up says it has, then for heaven's sake don't use those abilities in your world.

We are an idea guild because it works better for everyone. We are not limited and constrained by a single system. As an idea, I can generate things that do not have matching game mechanics (in a given system). And you can take anything we post, and make it fit your game without any preconceived notions of what we think the power level should be.

If you need mechanics (or must have them), you could always PM the person responsible for the write up. They may have the mechanics you need for the game you want.

_

#6

I think you may have misunderstood me. Yesterday, when i created this topic, I was reading through ideas here, and saw many comments which stated, that you should not use stats. That's the thing that made me angry(yesterday I used the term 'bored'). That if I, for example made a good item, that has a good description and a decent background. Then I give it a few stats with, say, D&D rules. I can't see what's so bad in it that you should point it out every time.

But, I agree with you all that some(most?) of the posts just have the stats, not the description. If I see a post like this, I would propably point it out too that this isn't a site where you can post that kind of things.

The Idea guild is a great idea, and that's the reason why I joined here, not to some 'here's-a-ready-campaign-with-characters-items-npc's-and-everything-You'll-ever-neer' -site. I do see the wisdom in it, just wanted to point out this, because it made me feel a bit angry. I just hope that you too could be more forgiving in the future, with things like these.

And now I think I'll put an end to this, before I talk myself out.

Thanks.

About the non game-specific -thing

#7

Thank you for your eloquent explanation of your position, Tax.

About the non game-specific -thing

#8

I agree with you completely Taxus!

A few stats (as long as the knowledge of them is not required for understanding) are acceptable and should be overlooked.

Even if the submission isn't stats overloaded, if the stats are used in a way that they require an explanation to understand the submission then that is *bad* and will probably be commented on.

This doesn't go only for stats, but spell or effect descriptions as well.

You can't say this weapon is resistant to fire and can twice daily.

That is bad. You can use the spell or effect if you *fully* explain it but then if you fully explain it there is no reason to use the game specific title of it.

So, realistically, there is really no reason to use stats or game specific descriptions because they should be fully explained anyway. While they may slip in occassionally with no harm done, if the submission was well written then it wouldn't need them.

But a few stats, as long as they are fully explained, shouldn't hurt anything. They can't be a crutch for full description though.

And you have a very valid point and it is a topic I have had a few PMs about so it is a widely debated concern. I am going to stick to my vision though. I may fold on a great many other things, that is why this is a community, but the overall premise of the site will remain.

Please *DO* talk yourself out. We love good debates and this one may become a FAQ/Sticky to help others understand as well.

About the non game-specific -thing

#9

I think that sometimes stats are helpful, but they serve as a quick crutch for people lacking inspiration for the moment or in general. Moonhunter made a good example of this with the many versions of the same weapon in varied systems.

Wth a good description of the submission, people can decide to like the idea, and then work it into thier game a level of power for what they intend. If you just toss up numbers, you've set the power level, and it may be more or less powerful than they intend, and the submission won't work for them.

I think that making a submission for it's own merit is the base any submission should start from. If you intended it for a specifc system, with specific effects, maybe we could see those statistics listed in the 'Notes' section of the post. Maybe. But if too many submissions pop up with more in the notes section than the submission, then we need to just keep stats out all together.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?